Platini's Plan

[crowie]

Originally Posted by Napoleon Solo

However, open up the CL to a potentially "inferior" team (a Union Berlin or Calais) and suddenly it's the competition that's going to suffer.

Competitions like the CL should be there to benefit teams, the teams shouldn't be there to benefit the CL. If a team like Wigan make it to the CL then good for them, they'll benefit from a bit of extra revenue that season which will hopefully make them more competitive in coming years, which can only be a good thing surely!

I agree to an extent but I still think a teams league placing is more important.

Did Millwall not get to a Cup Final without facing a top division side? What if they were to qualify for the CL through beating one EPL club throughout an entire season? Is that fair on the 4th placed EPL side who has won 20 games in the EPL that season?

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Originally Posted by crowie

I agree to an extent but I still think a teams league placing is more important.

Did Millwall not get to a Cup Final without facing a top division side? What if they were to qualify for the CL through beating one EPL club throughout an entire season? Is that fair on the 4th placed EPL side who has won 20 games in the EPL that season?

Agree about the stadiums Crowie - filling them week in week out would be nigh on impossible.

Your point here and Napoleons too. This wouldn't even be an issue if UEFA stuck to this competition being the CHAMPIONS league would it?

[Napoleon Solo]

75,000+ stadia in Europe

1. Camp Nou, Barcelona, Spain
2. Wembley, London, England
3. Luzhniki Stadium, Moscow, Russia
4. Olimpiyskiy, Kyiv, Ukraine
5. Stadio Giuseppe Meazza, Milan, Italy
6. Stadio Olimpico, Rome, Italy
7. Croke Park, Dublin, Ireland
8. Atatürk Olympic Stadium, Istanbul, Turkey
9. Signal Iduna Park, Dortmund, Germany
10. Estadio Santiago Bernabéu, Madrid, Spain
11. Stade de France, Saint-Denis, France
12. Stadio San Paolo, Naples, Italy
13. Old Trafford, Manchester, England

That's 13 stadia in 9 different countries. Croke Park is a bit of an uncertainty, though they have hosted a few Irish international matches there so they may be up for a showpiece cup final.

I do agree that maybe the 75,000 is a bit much, maybe drop it to 60,000. Opens up so many more possible venues in more different countries.

Stadia 60,000 to 75,000 capacity

Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, Wales (74,500)
Olympiastadion, Berlin, Germany (74,228)
Athens Olympic Stadium, Athens, Greece (71,030)
Allianz Arena, Munich, Germany (69,901)
Hrazdan Stadium, Yerevan, Armenia (69,000)
Stadium Puskás Ferenc, Budapest, Hungary (68,976)
Stadio delle Alpi, Turin, Italy (67,229)
Estádio da Luz, Lisbon, Portugal (65,647)
Veltins-Arena, Gelsenkirchen, Germany (61,482)
Celtic Park, Glasgow, Scotland (60,832)
Emirates Stadium, London, England (60,432)
Lia Manoliu Stadium, Bucharest, Romania (60,120)
Stade Vélodrome, Marseille, France (60,031)

That's another 13 available venues, though obviously some may not be quite up to scratch facility wise!

[crowie]

Originally Posted by Napoleon Solo

75,000+ stadia in Europe

1. Camp Nou, Barcelona, Spain
2. Wembley, London, England
3. Luzhniki Stadium, Moscow, Russia
4. Olimpiyskiy, Kyiv, Ukraine
5. Stadio Giuseppe Meazza, Milan, Italy
6. Stadio Olimpico, Rome, Italy
7. Croke Park, Dublin, Ireland
8. Atatürk Olympic Stadium, Istanbul, Turkey
9. Signal Iduna Park, Dortmund, Germany
10. Estadio Santiago Bernabéu, Madrid, Spain
11. Stade de France, Saint-Denis, France
12. Stadio San Paolo, Naples, Italy
13. Old Trafford, Manchester, England

That's 13 stadia in 9 different countries. Croke Park is a bit of an uncertainty, though they have hosted a few Irish international matches there so they may be up for a showpiece cup final.

I do agree that maybe the 75,000 is a bit much, maybe drop it to 60,000. Opens up so many more possible venues in more different countries.

Stadia 60,000 to 75,000 capacity

Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, Wales (74,500)
Olympiastadion, Berlin, Germany (74,228)
Athens Olympic Stadium, Athens, Greece (71,030)
Allianz Arena, Munich, Germany (69,901)
Hrazdan Stadium, Yerevan, Armenia (69,000)
Stadium Puskás Ferenc, Budapest, Hungary (68,976)
Stadio delle Alpi, Turin, Italy (67,229)
Estádio da Luz, Lisbon, Portugal (65,647)
Veltins-Arena, Gelsenkirchen, Germany (61,482)
Celtic Park, Glasgow, Scotland (60,832)
Emirates Stadium, London, England (60,432)
Lia Manoliu Stadium, Bucharest, Romania (60,120)
Stade Vélodrome, Marseille, France (60,031)

That's another 13 available venues, though obviously some may not be quite up to scratch facility wise!

From your list

Camp Nou had it 99.

Wembley will get it.

Moscow has it this season.

Mates have been to Kiev for Scotland game, stadium and security is horrendous, terrible ground.

San Siro and Olympic stadium are your typical Italian bolt seats to the terraces stadiums. I have been in the San Siro twice and while its impressive to look at I would say your average Reebok Stadium would beat the arse of it in terms of facilities. It was mucky as hell inside.

Croke Park won't happen for football.

Istanbul had it 3 years ago.

Dortmund, Bernabeu I agree should have it. Dortmunds stadium is excellent.

Stade De France had it 2 years ago.

Napoli, no chance, stadium is a shit hole.

Old Trafford, yep, good stadium.


Out of that list I reckon 8 are suitable now as I don't think the 2 big Italian ones are. I also don't think the Russian one will be up to much. By the end of this season 3 of those 8 will have held it the last 3 years so your looking at 5 grounds (Wembley, OT, RM and Barca and Dortmund) as candidates going forward.


If you go down the list like you say further then

Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, Wales (74,500) - should be in running
Olympiastadion, Berlin, Germany (74,228) - likewise
Athens Olympic Stadium, Athens, Greece (71,030) - was this not last seasons final which all the Scouser are saying was a poor set up?
Allianz Arena, Munich, Germany (69,901) - should be in running
Hrazdan Stadium, Yerevan, Armenia (69,000) - No chance!
Stadium Puskás Ferenc, Budapest, Hungary (68,976) - no idea.
Stadio delle Alpi, Turin, Italy (67,229) - shithole, being binned by Juve.
Estádio da Luz, Lisbon, Portugal (65,647) - Should be in running.
Veltins-Arena, Gelsenkirchen, Germany (61,482) - had Monaco Porto final.
Celtic Park, Glasgow, Scotland (60,832) - not a 5 star stadium so can't host it.
Emirates Stadium, London, England (60,432) - should be in the running
Lia Manoliu Stadium, Bucharest, Romania (60,120) - no chance.
Stade Vélodrome, Marseille, France (60,031) - no chance.


It should be a big stadium but I do think by putting a lower limit on capacity you are ruling out far too many options.

As I said earlier, there was no complaints from anyone when 52,000 Hampden held either the Real v Leverkusen CL final or last seasons UEFA final. I am sure there are plenty of other similar stadiums around Europe who could say likewise.

[wazik]

I cant decide whether this is a good idea or not. On one hand as has been said already it makes the cups more intresting/competitive which has to be good but the other side is the leagues could suffer.

Take for example the SPL last year, a couple of months to go and all Celtic need to do is not lose 3 out of 10 games or whatever it is, Rangers being pushed by Aberdeen for the much needed 2nd place to get to Champions league qualifing. Under this proposed system if they are out the cup by that point they have nothing to play for in the last 3-4 months of the season. If I was the gaffer I would field my under 20s or whatever for the rest of the season and get them some 1st team experience, who cares if you finish 4th the difference in cash between 2nd and 4th isnt going to make much difference to Rangers.

Same in England there are 4 teams that realistically could battle every year for the top 2 places to get CL football. Every year these teams get stronger from the cash but look how competitive the premier is in England, not to win it but to finish in the spots from 3rd to 8th. Do we really a want a division of cup teams? There are many teams who have come into the CL by not winning their own league and they bring a lot to the competition, Liverpool being the top example off the top of my head.

Any team can win a domestic cup, not on a regular basis maybe but all the teams have it in them, I think consistency over a full season should be rewarded rather than a lucky draw and a handfull of good results. Anyway can you imagine half the managers complaining if they actually had to take a cup seriously, they complain enough as it is.

I think what needs to be looked at is the UEFA cup rather than the CL, improve the silly format and maybe pump some money into it. I cant remember the exact figures but comparing Celtic's cash gain from the run in the CL to Ranger's run in the UEFA the difference is staggering. Really the only incentive to win the UEFA cup is that of winning a major european trophy compared to the cash cow that the CL is. I say clip some from the CL and feed it to an improved UEFA cup.

[rcgills]

Originally Posted by wazik

Take for example the SPL last year, a couple of months to go and all Celtic need to do is not lose 3 out of 10 games or whatever it is, Rangers being pushed by Aberdeen for the much needed 2nd place to get to Champions league qualifing. Under this proposed system if they are out the cup by that point they have nothing to play for in the last 3-4 months of the season. If I was the gaffer I would field my under 20s or whatever for the rest of the season and get them some 1st team experience, who cares if you finish 4th the difference in cash between 2nd and 4th isnt going to make much difference to Rangers.

Just out of interest, Wazik, how did Rangers get knocked out of the cup that year? Do they tend to put out a weakened side in the early rounds of the cup? Because if they do, presumably they wouldn't if they knew there was a risk they'd end up out of the running for Champions League qualification as a result. Obviously though it's a bit of a bugger if they draw Celtic

Going off on a slight tangent now, and not saying I'd necessarily be in favour of the idea, but as a potential solution to people saying that lower league teams can do well in the cup with a lucky draw and without playing any top teams - what about seeding the cup draw? Let's face it, the vast majority of lower league teams who get to the third round only want to draw a "big" team anyway, so they'd be happy enough. And it means anyone getting to the final would have to beat seeded teams along the way (or teams that had knocked out seeded teams).

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Originally Posted by rcgills

Just out of interest, Wazik, how did Rangers get knocked out of the cup that year? Do they tend to put out a weakened side in the early rounds of the cup? Because if they do, presumably they wouldn't if they knew there was a risk they'd end up out of the running for Champions League qualification as a result. Obviously though it's a bit of a bugger if they draw Celtic

The Old Firm tend to put out pretty strong teams RC, if not the strongest.

Rangers got beat at home by St Johnstone if i remember correctly.

[wazik]

Originally Posted by Kiko

The Old Firm tend to put out pretty strong teams RC, if not the strongest.

Rangers got beat at home by St Johnstone if i remember correctly.

Without checking that sounds right but whether a club fields a strong team or not is irrelevant in a cup. In a one off game most teams are capable of beating anyone whereas a season long league seperates these teams and irons out the freak results and I think is much more deserving of a place at the top level of club football.

I dont really see the point of Killie getting to the CL qualifing stage and getting humped once every 20 or so years, winning the cup is enough to motivate us to try and win the thing. Of course it would be great to qualify and make it to the group stage for financial reasons but how many points do you think Rangers will get out their group? Imagine if it was Killie or Dunfermline instead.

Same goes in England, there are many teams capable of winning a cup but its the Champions League, I realise all teams in it are not champions, the highest level of club football. I think the "best" teams should qualify. As I said before beef up the UEFA for the smaller teams and its problem solved.

[crowie]

Originally Posted by rcgills

Just out of interest, Wazik, how did Rangers get knocked out of the cup that year? Do they tend to put out a weakened side in the early rounds of the cup? Because if they do, presumably they wouldn't if they knew there was a risk they'd end up out of the running for Champions League qualification as a result. Obviously though it's a bit of a bugger if they draw Celtic

Going off on a slight tangent now, and not saying I'd necessarily be in favour of the idea, but as a potential solution to people saying that lower league teams can do well in the cup with a lucky draw and without playing any top teams - what about seeding the cup draw? Let's face it, the vast majority of lower league teams who get to the third round only want to draw a "big" team anyway, so they'd be happy enough. And it means anyone getting to the final would have to beat seeded teams along the way (or teams that had knocked out seeded teams).

Rangers got knocked out, with a full team, at bottom of the table Dunfermline RC. Dunfermline made the final but were also relegated. It would be farcical if they had won the final and Scotlands CL reps were Celtic and Division 1 Dunfermline.

As for seeding the Cup, nah, again, not worth it. It destroys, certainly in the UK, what the cup was set up for, a random drawing of teams. The Cup should get its reward for winning it but it should be a place in the UEFA Cup, which I think should be straight knockout, therefore Cup winners go into a European Cup winners compeition which is run along the same lines as the competition they won to qualify for it. That seems a logical progression to me. Probably too logical for UEFA

The UEFA Cup was bastardised to try and cash in on some of the CL TV money but to be honest its a complete non event with this group stage part of it. Just there to ensure each team gets 4 games and "their fair share". Which is bollocks IMO. Thing is no TV company, apart from the Germans, will pay any sort of decent amount of money to show these games.

[christianu]

Saying only the champions or only 1st or 2nd from the top three nations should qualify sounds right and it sounds like a good thing to say.

However it would just make the champions league a lot more boring, the champions league is great at the moment, but if you change it to just champions then you only have a handful of good games and loads of mega teams vs shite teams etc..

Its just one of those things people say because it sounds right, but football is entertainment and having only champions from all countries would just not be 1/8th as entertaining.

Having the cup winners I think is a good idea, 80% of the time it will not matter because the top 3 will win the cup anyway but it might help bridge the gap from the top four to the rest of the league once in a while, in terms of money from champs league etc..

[all_funkt_up]

Its funny isnt it. 10 years ago we had a competition for the Champions - the Champions League. We also had a separate competition for those that were consistant in the league - the UEFA cup and also one for the Cup Winners - the Cup Winner's cup.

UEFA dismantled them, to enlarge the Champions League. The cream of the UEFA cup, those that finished 2nd and 3rd in their league each year, were added to the CL. They scrapped the cup winners competition and bundled them in with the watered down UEFA cup.

So we had one immense competition and another one with teams that either fluked a cup win or came 5th - 7th in their relative league.

UEFA fucked around with 3 successful competitions that were all strong in their own right. They are now looking to tinker once again - bunch of twats.

Entrance to the champions league should be based on league performance only. Whether we set the boundaries to winners only, top 2, top 3 etc is unimportant. What counts is that its based on league performance.

If it is necessary to reward cup winners, then do so through the UEFA cup or invent a cup winner's competition. Dont tinker with the Champions League, again.

[all_funkt_up]

He shelved his changes in the end - mainy because they were shit.