Liverpool Fans - "Europe's Worst"

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Everyone has their own opinion on this. Rather than have my say first off, I thought I would see what reaction it got from other people.

Undoubtedly, some Liverpool fans did not help themselves or indeed the reputation of the club. There was some trouble and there were apparently 'incidents' where fans had their tickets stolen. I think though it is typical of a big organisation like UEFA to lay the blame at someone else's door. The dossier isnt due for release until tomorrow yet they have leaked information to the press and struck the first blow.

Rather than being an independant, unbiased assessment of the circumstances it seems UEFA has already decided who is to blame for the scenes in Athens. They have raked up a catalogue of incidents from European Away games from the last 4 years in order to slur the Liverpool fans. There is no mention as to what these incidents are but they are clearly insinuating that Liverpool fans have a history of mis behaviour.

23 incidents in 5 seasons of European football involving Liverpool fans. Several questions beg to be asked. What is an incident? Is it a minor infringement with local police, a full scale riot or worse? How many games have been played over this period and how does the "infringement per game" ratio measure with other clubs?

Liverpool have played the qualifying rounds recently in European football, therefore accumulating more games therefore the number of reported ingringements is surely greater that a team who has only qualified for Europe on the odd occasion. Their record per game may be similar (or better) but the volume may be greater as far as Liverpool are concerned as they have played a greater number of games.

Hardly seems as if 'we' will have a fair hearing now though does it. Quite what an incident in 2003 at Marseille, Vladikavkaz or Sofia has to do with crowd control and ticketing problems in Athens 2007 I do not know. They should be examining the facts of the most recent game and that alone. Then again, that is assuming they want to find the root cause.

UEFA doesnt want to took into ticket touting, ticket allocation or indeed the choice of venue. No blame will be laid at the door of the organising parties, no investigation will take place and therefore no improvements will be made for future games.

Oh and as for the slur that Liverpool fans are the scum of the Earth with a history of violence, here is what Mr Gaillard said the week before the final:

“The two groups of supporters (Milan and Liverpool) have a tradition of good behaviour and at this point we are expecting that to continue.”Slightly at odds with his position today isnt it.

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Some more reaction to UEFA's comments in the press today, from Rick Parry:

REDS RESPOND TO UEFA ATTACK ON FANS

Paul Rogers 04 June 2007

Rick Parry today responded to Uefa spokesman William Gaillard's scathing attack on the club's fans by insisting that his comments shouldn't be allowed to cloud over the real issue ahead a meeting between the British government and Uefa this week.
"The shortcomings in the management of the situation in Athens were apparent to anyone who was there," insists Liverpool Chief Executive Rick Parry, "and these latest comments from Uefa should not deflect attention from that reality. What is most surprising about the latest comments from Mr Gaillard is that one the eve of the final, he quite rightly commented that Liverpool supporters 'have a tradition of good behaviour'.

"Let's not forget that these same supporters who Mr Gaillard is claiming are now the worst in Europe were praised by Uefa President Michel Platini after our semi-final victory against Chelsea only last month, commended for their behaviour in Istanbul in 2005 and actually honoured by Uefa at a gala dinner in Monte Carlo in 2001 as joint Supporters of the Years with Alves after the UEFA Cup final."

Richard Caborn, the British Sports Minister, is meeting Uefa President Michel Platini on Tuesday and top of the agenda is the problems that marred the Champions League final in Athens.

"I have a lot of sympathy with the Liverpool fans who paid their hard-earned money for genuine tickets but couldn't get into the ground," revealed Caborn, who is traveling to Brussels to meet Platini. "The reasons for this need an urgent explanation. We have already raised the matter with the Greek authorities through our embassy in Athens and government officials are also talking with UEFA. I will be putting this issue high on the agenda at a meeting I am to have with Michel Platini."

Of particular interest to Caborn will be why Liverpool's concerns prior to the final about fans safety and security measures to guard against overcrowding due to forged tickets were seemingly ignored by Uefa.

"To have a stadium with no counting system and no turnstiles is unforgivable for any standard of game, let alone a major final," explained Parry.

"We produced a report for Uefa a week beforehand predicting, sadly, all of the things that did go wrong. We told Uefa our intelligence suggested there were 5,000 forged tickets in existence. They knew and we knew that thousands of fans would travel without tickets and we stressed the need for a proper check at the outer cordon."

Already one Liverpool supporter is threatening to sue Uefa for compensation after being denied entry to the Olympic Stadium in Athens despite having a valid ticket. Paul Gregory, an architect and former Liverpool Football Club shareholder, paid £2,370 for flights, accommodation and tickets for the final and insists, in a letter sent to Platini, "I would like this to be reimbursed by Uefa.

"It's the least you can do for putting our lives at risk. If this is not forthcoming we intend to take action against Uefa through the British judicial system, and through the European Courts if necessary. It was only through good luck that Uefa avoided deaths."

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

If they have carried out this report fairly then i dont think Liverpool can complain to be honest.

[Khartoum]

Just think UEFA's trying to cover their arse to be honest.
There just seems to be alot of things wrong here.
1. Stadium - Size,too small & by all accounts security seems poor, if you've got the worst fans in town, security should be high priority.
2. Because of the stadium size the number of tickets going to clubs is small, due to the number of corporate & local tickets.
3. Liverpool giving 11,000 to their fans. 6,000 going to sponsors, ex-players etc. What do you feel about this AFU, personally if this was my club, I'd be livid about this. Ex-players, they played for the club well paid for it by the fans & they still get freebies in front of you who's still paying week in, week out.
4. From reports it seems that some Liverpool fans actions did not do themselves any favours, maybe wrong but a couple of years ago didn't a larger number of Celtic fans go to Seville but I don't remember hearing anything like these problems.

[raisin man]

Anyon ethink that it might just be that Liverpool have a lot of european football recently so of course a lot of the incidents will involve them.

BTW, what ever happened to that Liverpool fan in Turkey with the murder then the real guy came forward?

[andeeeee]

mike
over these 5 years how many fines have liverpool had with all these `incidents`, UEFArce seem pretty quick to fine clubs over any bit of trouble. i cant remember any

[andeeeee]

The latest from Reuters seems to be another climbdown by UEFA from their "all Liverpool fans are murdering scum" approach of yesterday:

Liverpool won't face sanctions over final - report
Mon Jun 4, 2007 11:22 PM IST162

By Darren Ennis

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Liverpool will not face any sanctions by UEFA following a report into security problems at last month's Champion League Final, senior sources at European soccer's governing body said on Monday.

Citing the document, to be submitted to British sports minister Richard Caborn on Tuesday, sources confirmed no action will be taken against the English club, despite evidence that a number of Liverpool fans were to blame for the trouble in Athens.

"The report draws up some proposals, not sanctions. There will be no disciplinary action taken against Liverpool," one UEFA source told Reuters.

UEFA previously blamed Liverpool fans with forged tickets or those with no ticket for forcing their way into Athens' Olympic Stadium on May 23 for the match against AC Milan, while dozens of fans with genuine tickets were refused entry.

When Liverpool fans tried to enter the stadium, the situation threatened to escalate out of control and Greek police fired tear gas and used batons.

But although the report acknowledges that the trouble "was at the Liverpool end" and their opponents "were not to blame", it does not point the finger at the club or the majority of its fans.

"The report is more of a narrative on what happened from start to finish and proposes how to deal with it better in the future such as better police cooperation and a better strategy," another source said.

Ironically, the report will highlight the benefits of police tactics already used by British police forces at soccer matches, the source said.

BLAME GAME

UEFA, Liverpool and British authorities will hope news of the report's contents will calm tensions in the aftermath of the match which has led to a war of words over who was to blame for the trouble.

The atmosphere worsened ahead of Tuesday's report when a top UEFA official indicated that the document would identify Liverpool as a problem club, pointing to 25 incidents involving the English club.

However, both UEFA and British government officials said they were not seeking a confrontation when Caborn meets UEFA President Michel Platini on Tuesday in Brussels.

Caborn called on Monday for "an end to the blame game".

"This is not about UEFA versus Liverpool or UEFA versus England fans, we must all stop playing the blame game and stop pointing fingers at people," he told Reuters.

William Gaillard, advisor to UEFA President Michel Platini and the official at the centre of the dispute, told Reuters:

"Yes the troublemakers were Liverpool fans, but these were a minority of Liverpool fans. As I said the day after the final, 99 percent of Liverpool fans are fine, but this minority causes the problems.

"They need to be taught that attending a game is not a right it is a privilege which you must pay for. You can't take a tube in London for instance without for a proper ticket."

GATES OPENED

The report will say there was a moment of panic when the Greek police rightly opened the gates to prevent further trouble, stating that "a few hundred of the many thousands of supporters took the law into their own hands".

"The report says Liverpool stewards, who are capable at home in their own stadium, were unable to be influential on the night," the source said,

The UEFA document also includes evidence from various Liverpool fans with legitimate tickets who were forced to sit on each other's laps -- or stand up -- as a result of forged duplicate tickets.

A second report and more detailed report will be collated and sent to Britain's Home Office in the coming weeks, UEFA said.

It confirmed that a probe was also continuing into how around 800 Liverpool supporters got tickets in the Milan end which were known to be distributed to AC Milan.

(Additional reporting by Mike Collett in London and Mark Ledsom in Berne)

[crowie]

Originally Posted by Khartoum

Just think UEFA's trying to cover their arse to be honest.
There just seems to be alot of things wrong here.
1. Stadium - Size,too small & by all accounts security seems poor, if you've got the worst fans in town, security should be high priority.
2. Because of the stadium size the number of tickets going to clubs is small, due to the number of corporate & local tickets.
3. Liverpool giving 11,000 to their fans. 6,000 going to sponsors, ex-players etc. What do you feel about this AFU, personally if this was my club, I'd be livid about this. Ex-players, they played for the club well paid for it by the fans & they still get freebies in front of you who's still paying week in, week out.
4. From reports it seems that some Liverpool fans actions did not do themselves any favours, maybe wrong but a couple of years ago didn't a larger number of Celtic fans go to Seville but I don't remember hearing anything like these problems.

Khartoum,

The stadium in Athens was 60,000+, Hampden held it a few years ago with a 52,000 capacity - and no issues security wise.


Personally, if the reports are true, I can't understand why Liverpool gave away 6,000 out of 17,000 tickets to corporates etc.

Celtic took approx 80,000 to Seville in 2003, and no arrests at all, or incidents. Fans ended up getting a Fair Play award from UEFA. Lots who didn't get in watched it on big screens in city centre.

Originally Posted by Raisin

Anyon ethink that it might just be that Liverpool have a lot of european football recently so of course a lot of the incidents will involve them.

I see what your are saying Raisin but surely it shouldn't naturally follow that just because Liverpool are playing in Europe they must have some incidents with their fans abroad.

Originally Posted by Raisin

BTW, what ever happened to that Liverpool fan in Turkey with the murder then the real guy came forward?

He is still in jail, in Bulgaria, where the attack took place. Michael Shields is his name and its a very messy case. As for the "real guy" coming forward, well his story had more holes in it than a string vest.

Originally Posted by Andee

over these 5 years how many fines have liverpool had with all these `incidents`, UEFArce seem pretty quick to fine clubs over any bit of trouble. i cant remember any

Good point Andee. UEFA are pretty quick to come out with these numbers and incidents but I can't remember much or any media coverage of them when they supposedly occurred. Surely Liverpool would be on a last warning if these incidents were major bother. Certainly haven't seen anything in the stadiums.


However I think at the Athens game they didn't do themselves any favours. I know these stories tend to grow arms and legs but if there is any truth in fans fighting each other for tickets or stealing them of bairns, well its shameful.

Also many fans knew they had shady tickets, surely Liverpool fans more than anyone should know the dangers and possible consequences of too many people overloading one part of the ground. I hope these lost with the snide tickets aren't out chanting JFT96 next season knowing they could have caused a potential tradgedy themselves with their willingness to bunk into the ground any way the could irrespective of the numbers in there already.

Liverpool are telling UEFA that there were 5,000 snide tickets on the go, just think if they hadn't punted those 6,000 to corporates etc, this might never have been an issue.

[keemanan]

Celtic took approx 80,000 to Seville in 2003, and no arrests at all, or incidents. Fans ended up getting a Fair Play award from UEFA. Lots who didn't get in watched it on big screens in city centre.

That's a telling quote for me AFU , nobody made Liverpool fans behave badly and trying to get in without a ticket is unjustifiable , what did they think would happen ?

[all_funkt_up]

Originally Posted by Crowie

He is still in jail, in Bulgaria, where the attack took place. Michael Shields is his name and its a very messy case. As for the "real guy" coming forward, well his story had more holes in it than a string vest.

Indeed mate. Michael is due to serve the remaining 8 years (of a 10 year sentence) in Britain though which is a step forward. Graham Sankey (the bloke that admitted the crime) has refused to stand trial in Bulgaria and therefore the Bulgarian courts refuse to pardon Michael. Infact they only last month refused the poor lad a re trial.

Shocking

Anyway, back on to the fans - UEFA's statement is so vague its untrue. They paint a picture of our fans being the scum of the earth but dont actually have any information or statistics to back it up.

Much is made of the fans having a history of bad behaviour and this being a continuation of it. What exactly are these "incidents" that UEFA speaks of? If we are a bunch of trouble makers, why didnt the organising committee introduce measures beforehand to combat it?

I will re-iterate again that UEFA awarded us the title of "supporters of the year" in 2001 - again this contradicts their recent stance that we are and always have been scum.

Should be noted that there was no actual trouble between the rival fans. Its not like we went on the rampage and had running battles with Milan fans. Infact, I cant remember any incident this season involving us and opposition supporters at all.

"We" have a great friendship with PSV fans, Olympiakos fans and Benfica fans too. All borne out of European home and away games and the respect between the 2 groups of fans. There's great banter and respect and even after defeat, the Liverpool fans applauded Milan off the pitch on Athens. Hardly seems like the actions of a bunch of low life toe rags does it?

Contrast that with the behaviour of England fans when they lose, there is simply no comparison.

I see the latest round of exchanges as no more than populist diatribe. Designed to slur the good name of Liverpool fans on the eve of the meeting between UEFA and the British Government. We shall see how much actual 'evidence' is produced as a result of the discussion.

Probably none, but the damage has been done now. The first blow has been struck and no one will remember anything else.

Originally Posted by Raisin Man

Anyon ethink that it might just be that Liverpool have a lot of european football recently so of course a lot of the incidents will involve them.

Agreed and I made that point yesterday.

We have played more European games than most other clubs over the last few years. Therefore the likelihood of incidents increases, the more games you play.

Spurs for example might have played 3 European aways and had 3 reports of trouble.

Liverpool might have played 20 aways and had 20 reports of trouble.

The ratio of trouble makers is the same, only we have played more games.

Stands to reason too that out of 80'000 fans you will get a few thousand scumbags. Fans are a cross section of society and therefore you will get criminals and mongs in every group.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

I actually seen some sickening videos of Liverpool fans attacking Milan fans in Greece.

But i wont let that make me believe they are bad fans as you get groups of morons associated with all fans.

The stories about fans stealing tickets from kids is fucking appalling it has to be said.

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Possible Improvements


I thought rather than just criticising UEFA, I would look at what could be done for future finals. In essence, they did a lot of things right. The fan parks in the centre of town were a great success. In contrast to the popular image, it should be noted that tens of thousands of fans there drinking and singing with no bother at all. Maybe as an idea for next time, they might want to stick some portaloos there though. Inviting 10'000 people to drink in Syntagma Square and not providing any toilet facilities at all is a bit naive.

The metro system, signing and general organisation out of the stadium was first class. I think this was mainly down to the Athens Olympics in 2004 and had little to do with UEFA itself. Never the less, I found the people very helpful and the public transport was absolutely spot on.

Looking at ticketing though, I think some changes have to be made. UEFA need to stop the public ballot and providing tickets for locals. The final belongs to the 2 clubs competing and them alone. Quite why any neutral would want to go to a game like that (having no interest in either team) and deprive a fan of a ticket is beyond me. For big games like that, it encourages touting of tickets. Most of the tickets on Ebay in the week running up to the game were in the neutral section.

I wouldnt say that less tickets should be given to corporate fans however, I think they are unavoidable. As long as footballers demand more money and clubs demand higher sponsors revenue, they are a necessary evil. We just have to deal with it and move on.

Assuming you sort the tickets out fairly, the next thing I would look at is security around the ground. In theory the Greek authorities had everything planned out. They had an exclusion zone around the ground and were supposed to check and scan your ticket 3 times before you got near the ground. As everyone knows, this didnt happen. This then enabled your chancers to get close to the ground and blag their way in. Proper ticket checks (as FIFA employed during the world cup) would stop people with fake tickets or no tickets at all getting anywhere near the stadium and pushing their way in.

For my money, there were blokes blagging their way into the stadium early doors who then phoned their mates in town and said "its worth a go coming down, the security is piss poor, give it a go"

If the authorities had done what they decided to do in the first instance, this situation would not have arisen.

Another area of mis management for me is the stadium itself. I think we need to use a football stadium with a capacity of 70'000 or above. We need turnstyles or some sort of admission control facility. Fans would have found it harder to push in, had there been turn styles. As it was, there were gaping doors open to all brazen enough to try it. You simply couldnt get into an EPL game the same way, you'd never get past the turnstyle. Simple as.

Looking at venues is very interesting. Next year we have Moscow.

A very long trip for any fan looking to make the journey. Plus the choice of venue shows for me a lack of foresight by UEFA again. I wonder how much of a sweetener Putin had to pay Johanssen to get Moscow on the board.

Even ignoring Human Rights Abuses (Chechya etc) it is an odd fucking choice.

My first and major concern is the fact that you have to have a visa for entering Russia. These take typically 3 weeks to produce and cost over £100. So assuming you get to the final, you have 3 weeks notice from your Semi Final game to the match itself. Not much time to fill the forms in and to get your request processed by the Russian Embassy is it?

3 weeks is the usual turn around time. What policies are the Authorities putting in place to cope with, for example, 80'000 (a concervative estimate) extra applications from football fans in such a short period of time?

Madness, absolute madness.

Once again we will see a cock up at yet another major European Final. Fans with tickets and no visa, visa applications being approved too late in the day etc.

What's wrong with Paris, Madrid, Cardiff, Munich, Barcelona, Manchester, Wembley etc as the venue? UEFA is trying to be all inclusive and too bloody clever for its own good.

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Originally Posted by Kiko

The stories about fans stealing tickets from kids is fucking appalling it has to be said.

Stories though. That's all they are, legends indeed.

Who exactly had their tickets stolen?

Its just rumour and hyperbole stoked up by our tabloid press.

[all_funkt_up]

Oh and also, given the British Government's attitude to football fans in the past, why then is Richard Caborn defending our fans over this matter. They have been only too quick in the past to blame everything and everything on us, why the difference now?

Maybe because they know what actually happened.

Interesting