Situation with Pocket Tens

[mrmuzeman]

Ok youre in a loose cash game with lots of people seeing flops. You pick up pocket Tens UTG and call the big blind which we will say is $1.

1 mid position limps as well, small blind calls and big blind checks. You and the 3 others take the flop.

A 10 8 with 2 spades

Both blinds check to you so you bet the pot of $4. ALL 3 players call.

Turn is a 9, non spade

Small blind checks and big blind bets $16 into a $20 pot. You have $90 infront of you and the big blind has you covered. What do you do and what hands would you think he could hold?

[Hippy Dave]

I'm too busy to think what I'd do, but I'll have a guess that he's got a flush and open ended straight draw, so something like KJs

[christianu]

I reckon he has 67 here although I couldnt be sure, i would actually call and look to house up as you probably have implied odds as he probably wont lay it down. Also he might not have anything and you have position on him so you might of been ahead anyway but I think he has 67.

[mrmuzeman]

Your BANG ON Chris thats exactly what he had. Ill say what happened later but it wasnt good

Why 76 by the way and dyu mean 76s or 76o?

[aliensyndm]

The hand which would immediately spring to mind is JQ, that's the danger hand. He's got an open ended straight draw with JQ from the flop although it doesn't look like it immediately. A king or a 9 both make him the nut straight.
It could of course be suited as well, or not.
There's other players in the pot of course and they are calling with something or for something you have to think. Probably some flush draws, perhaps someone has a weak ace or some numpty could be "slow-playing" A-10
Thing is you of course have to accept your hand could be losing on the turn.
The main danger of calling that $16 is that some bastard after you might raise and you are in trouble. Obviously you are drawing to a full house but there is the chance someone with an ace has flopped 2 pair or now has 2 pair which in which case an ace on the river is no good. Normally if someone has AA you hear about it pre-flop so you gotta discount that really.
Basically if you reckon that you are drawing to a full house which will win and that you will get the guys whole stack if you make it you could call the $16.
Raise after your call is the main thing I would be worried about.
The piggy is if the river falls a blank like a 2 which doesn't make a flush. Obviously you want a free look if possible. Should someone bet you then have a decision to make, you'd have to judge on the size of that bet and judge your man as to whether they have the straight.
I'd probably call the $16 and pray I wasn't raised and then take it from there.

[aliensyndm]

Well if he is the kind of numpty that will call for an inside straight draw you gotta think he isn't laying it down if the board pairs.
Of course if he had a flush draw and the inside straight draw his hand is a bit more playable.

[christianu]

Originally Posted by mrmuzeman

Your BANG ON Chris thats exactly what he had. Ill say what happened later but it wasnt good

Why 76 by the way and dyu mean 76s or 76o?

Not specific about either, was it 6s7s? I would of thought a smaller bet with that as he isnt scared of the flush. But the fact he bet $16 into that $20 shows he has a strong hand but he knows it can be easily beaten, he's in panic really. He has to want you to fold here.

Go on tell us what happened?

[mrmuzeman]

Well the numpty had 76offsuit which really is crap but as Alien says may as well have QJ for all it mattered to me.

Basically I thought if the guy hasnt called on a gutshot then im ahead so I raised him pretty big for about two thirds of my stack. He then re-raised all in and of course once this has happened I have to call the rest. Needless to say the river was a blank.

I add much to my disapointment, that I neglected to see that the QJ had an open ended straight, much to my disgust afterward. Fundamental error which may have led to me raising instead of calling.

Still I dont think a raise was a bad play as it gave him the option of laying down (when you dont know what he has this is a decent possibility). Calling doesnt give this option and could allow a suckout from a worse hand but of course limits your losses. The fact he bet into me as well made me suspect not a made hand. If hed called or slowplayed etc it would have been more obvious.

[christianu]

Balls MrM, we'll get them back

That will probably encourage him to call with more gutshots the numpty.

I was wondering wether I should start a thread on ym QQ vs AK last night

I had QQ was raised on the button, re raised pre flop he calls and flop is:

10 J Q, he checks I bet he raises all in, yeah you say you have to call but sometimes when you know he has AK...

[christianu]

Thought id steal your thunder MrM

[aliensyndm]

Yeah JQ would be the hand I was worried about but the hand would effectively play the same. With 67 it's an awful call but either way the straight possibility is on after the turn and of course the flush draw is still there. Yeah had you realised JQ was an open ended straight draw you might have not raised which might have saved you some cash. Shit happens and all that man, onto the next hand !

[Doc]

thats why I'll always raise TT before the flop from early position. Also in a loose cash game pot-size bets don't scare off (enough) players with crap draws on the flop. I think you need to overbet the pot.

my general rule of thumb with loose games is that I take the simple meaning of each players bets unless they have given me reason to think otherwise. Here the guy has not raised pre-flop so he doesn't have a big pair or high cards. He has checked the flop and called (not check-raised) a decent bet on the flop. So he has a piece of the flop or a draw. It is not a flush draw as he has bet the turn. He doesn't have A9 or he'd have bet the flop. So, he has QJ, J7, T9, 98, J7 or 76. The only hands you can beat there are T9 and 98 (T9 is very unlikely as you have two of the three tens). He has bet into a flop raiser so unless he is trying to steal the pot from a spade flush draw (I'd rule this out for a loose/poor player) then he isn't going away. I'd call here and hope that I don't get raised behind. If you fill up you are going to make big money. If you are ahead (i.e. he is playing 98) and a J or a K falls on the river you'll probably get some read from him.

Call and hope.

And raise next time pre-flop

[aliensyndm]

You'll raise pocket tens in early position ? What do you plan on doing should even one(if not 2 or 3) overcard hit the board (which is pretty likely) ?
Checking it and showing weakness or betting it ?
No way I am raising pocket 10s in early position !

[Doc]

there are only 4 distinct hands (24 in total) beating you pre-flop. You have about 1/13 chance of getting a pocket pair, so it is unlikely that someone is ahead of you pre-flop. Get your money in and get Axs hands out, along with hand like KQ etc

What hands can legitimately call you? AK, AQ (maybe), a lower pair? If I get re-raised then I have defined my hand to some extent.

As for what I'd do if an overcard comes (about 75% of the time) - it depends how scary the board is and how many people I'm facing.

Consider the alternative - you flat call and get raised - are you going to fold?

If you're not raised you're encouraging more callers by calling in early position. You're going to facing more opponents with probable overcards - can you call?
What if the flop is 973 rainbow? It should be a safe flop for you, but you could easily have someone playing 97s or 65 or 86 or T8 etc

From the perspective of your opponents you might just as easily be playing AA, QQ, KK etc so they have to be wary of taking you on when an overcard to your tens fall.

Different strokes I guess, but it works for me. I guess it is where you draw the dividing line - I rarely raise with 99 from early position for example

[aliensyndm]

there are only 4 distinct hands (24 in total) beating you pre-flop. You have about 1/13 chance of getting a pocket pair, so it is unlikely that someone is ahead of you pre-flop. Get your money in and get Axs hands out, along with hand like KQ etc

If you raise UTG in a full ring game there are then still 9 other players to act. It's not so unlikely that one of them has a higher pocketpair. But that aside. You aren't going to get hands like KQ etc out anyway. People online will call raises with these hands all day long. Pocket 10s is ahead preflop to two overcards, it aint ahead to four overcards which is effectively what it is playing against. You are likely to get 2 or 3 callers, all of which will have position on you and between the lot of them it's likely they have at least 1 jack, queen, king and ace hence effectively there are 4 overcards out against you. As least 1 overcard will fall more often than not how do you play that ? Bet pocket 10s with an overcard out with two or more players still to act after you ? Erm don't think so. Or are you gonna check-call all the way down to the river ?

If you are raising in early position at a full ring game you need a very strong hand to be able to do so. Hands like pocket 10s are only gonna take a big pot down when they hit a set, why put more money, espeically in such bad position, into a pot that you don't need to ? Limp in and try and make the set.
If someone raises you have a hand you can call with anyway.
Someone could of course re-raise your pocket 10s and more money is going in when it would have only cost 1 raise had you limped.
How many flops are going to be 9 high or less anyway ?
Why do you play a hand like pocket 10s ? Are you playing it in the hope that the flop is 9 high and you can bet it and win the pot there and then ?
Or are you playing it hoping to hit a set and take down a decent pot ?
Besides even if the flop is 9 high and you bet it alot of online players with hands like AK etc will call you anyway and you still have a pretty good chance of being outdrawn, especially if a few of them call. Drawing hands that might call in 9 high flops also have a great chance to outdraw you as well. People DO call with AK etc on 9 high flops. I mean look at muzes example where the guy called for an inside straight draw.
When I call with T-T I want in cheap and am looking to hit a set, not to bet at a 9 high flop. If overcards come I can just fold and it only cost me 1 BB.
But should someone raise large and represent a big hand like AA or KK I can still call with implied odds as I have described many times before.