Thoughts on this hand please.

[christianu]

> chrisgoatian posted small blind ($0.25)
> DaKingic posted big blind ($0.50)
> Game # 614,926,689 starting.
> Dealing Hole Cards

Im dealt 7c 7h

> AzNRaGe raised for $3
> Snowman119 called for $3
> chrisgoatian called for $2.75
> DaKingic folded
> Dealing the Flop(7sKc6d)
> chrisgoatian checked
> AzNRaGe checked
> Snowman119 bet for $4
> chrisgoatian called for $4
> AzNRaGe raised for $12
> Snowman119 called for $8
> chrisgoatian called for $8
> Dealing the turn(2s)
> chrisgoatian checked
> AzNRaGe bet for $13.50
> Snowman119 folded
> chrisgoatian raised for $27
> AzNRaGe went all-in for $34.40
> chrisgoatian called for $20.90
> Dealing the river(Jd)
> AzNRaGe wins $139.30 with Three of a Kind, Kings

[christianu]

Would anyone fold at any point here? The player is also loose agressive from what I saw playing for half an hour.

[stereoman]

One of them 'cooler' hands, I'm afraid (being tight-passive, I probably would have just called the river instead of raising).

You could have got away with it but you didn't suspect the made set of kings. Who would? Hindsight suggested betting patterns might have given you a hint but their loose-aggressive play being deceptive unfortunately fooled you.

....what did you suspect he had? Two pair?

No consolation to you whatsoever but I played a Betfred freeroll on Tuesday morning and I got a similar cooler hand. I held pocket queens in late position and the only caller was the big blind. Flop? AQ4. He bets, I've got a made set of queens. We go into a raising war which eventually means I'm all-in. They flip over a made set of aces! And with only one out, it doesn't come and I'm out of the tourney.

[christianu]

Its tough aint it, no flush on, no straight but the idea of him having KK did enter my mind but his loose agressive play before hand swung it, I dont think I was ever going to get away from it.

I thought he might have KA or bluffing with his big bets.

[stereoman]

If it's any consolation (and it isn't), I would have lost my money as well. I'd have suspected TPTK (yeah, AK), two pair (possibly KJ) or a set of jacks because all I'd be thinking about is how much money can I extract from the guy. Not a made set of kings at all.

....just very unfortunate. If you weren't in the big blind, you may have even passed the 7s (you may have cursed yourself when you saw the flop but in one of those rare situations, Snowman would have been the one who got thumped instead even if they did eventually fold at the river, you might have seen a made set of kings and avoided such a situation).

I wouldn't have been able to get away from my made set of 7s from the big blind.

[mexineil]

This is very simple. If you flop set under set and don't lose all your money then you're not playing correctly. You can't go back now that you know he had kings and look for places you could have folded.

Especially looking at that board when you got all in. You COULD NOT have folded.

[aliensyndm]

That's gonna happen occassionally but that's just the way it goes. If I make a set like that against a raiser I'm putting call my cash in usually. The occassionaly times when we both make a set and he busts me are far outweighed by the times when he hasn't made a set and I bust him. Of course if I don't make a set I fold and he doesn't bust me.
I think you know what yourself christianu but you just came looking for some sympathy

[stereoman]

Eh. Staying up late and drinking alcohol is bad for you (depending on the individual and what you do, of course and it looks like I had plenty. I'm a fooking lightweight, me).

Ignore most of my second message. I'm confusing what happened to me for chris' situation (big blind? chris wasn't in the big frigging blind! And I end up more or less talking about me not chris. ).

[Doc]

I'd have folded the 77 I think (I'm presuming this is a full table?) Some guy has raised 6 times the BB - I've got to be concerned about his holding. I might play against a single raiser, but he has been cold-called (which would worry me) AND the big blind is still to play. You're going to be out of position for the rest of the hand. So fold there - but playing it is not terrible.

Once you have taken the flop you're losing all your money. End of.

[Doc]

just did some sums.

77 is 25% against a random holding plus two players playing the following (Ace with anything down to a ten - suited or unsuited. Pairs ten or higher. KQs). You're going to be out of position and the big blind is very unlikely to call with a hand weaker than yours so you aren't getting odds. Fold.

[aliensyndm]

The percentage chance of winning the pot pre-flop is not the point though.
If you made your calls based purely on that you would fold every time you think you are behind. But you don't do that do you ? I call many times "knowing" I am behind with the possibility of catching up on the flop. Then when ahead I'm gonna put the majority of the money in. That's the implied odds you are playing for calling with hands like pocket pairs which you are pretty certain are behind. It so happens in this instance both players flopped a set but that's just the way it goes. Many many other times both players wouldn't have flopped a set and the person who had KK would have AA and would be busted.

You're going to be out of position and the big blind is very unlikely to call with a hand weaker than yours so you aren't getting odds. Fold.

Quite where are you getting the you don't have odds argument from ? Odds for what ? Odds calculated from where ?
You've already called a raise of 6 x BB here you are already expecting to be behind here. The "thought" behind this is it's very likley he has a big hand like QQ , KK or AA (which he did), now you you have a pocket pair and if you can flop a set(which he did) there's a great chance you will bust his whole stack as he can't throw his cards away. It just so happens both players flopped a set, nothing you can do about that but he got exactly what he was playing for.

[Doc]

with 77 against 2 (maybe 3 - who could also re-raise!) opponents you'll alsmot certainly need to improve. So what are your chances of making a set? Are you getting them against players who have shown that strength? I don't think so. They're not going to check any flop which you won't be scared of - so really you're asking what chances of getting a 7 on the flop (even neglecting that you can get your 7 and still be behind as above). About 1 in 8 - and you're not getting even implied odds for that IMO.

[mexineil]

I have a nice calculation too.

Pocket Pair + Set * Aces = Busting someone.

[mrmuzeman]

Nah you flop a set you are keen to lose a stack occasionally.

One thing I would like to know is why you are just check calling the flop though Chris? You should be betting and raising no doubt hoping to get all your chips in on the flop.

[aliensyndm]

with 77 against 2 (maybe 3 - who could also re-raise!) opponents you'll alsmot certainly need to improve. So what are your chances of making a set?

The chances are exactly the same as they always are every time you call any bet with a pocket pair. You'll flop a set or better around 1 in 8 times.
Of course you will need to improve to win the hand when someone raises 6 x BB and you suspect they are on KK or AA. I wasn't under any impression that you win pots like this without flopping a set. What's your point ?

They're not going to check any flop which you won't be scared of

Obviously not, and that is when you fold. As I have described before if you call a large raise you heavily suspect is a big hand like AA or KK with a pocket pair like 88 and the board comes 7 high you can't get dragged in thinking your hand is good. Similarly if you don't flop a set and the board comes down with overcards there's no point calling bets down either. Sure the person might have raised with AK suited and your 77 on a Q52 flop is still good but there's still a decent chance it is going to be outdrawn and the person could be playing AQ for all you know anyway.
I'm not expecting people to check flops when a raise for 6 x BB is made. But I'm only gonna get involved when I've made a set.

so really you're asking what chances of getting a 7 on the flop (even neglecting that you can get your 7 and still be behind as above).
About 1 in 8 - and you're not getting even implied odds for that IMO.

As already stated your chance is the same as it always is, around 1 in 8.
If you have a look at my other thread you'll see the chances of you both flopping a set are about 1 in 98 but I'll come back to that.
Aren't getting implied odds ?!?!?! You do know what implied odds are right ?
Exactly how in your opinion are you not getting implied odds ?
Note also it was mentioned the player is loose-aggressive, the exact kind of person would you want to hit a set against as your almost certain on getting paid on it.
I've lost count of the amount of times I've called a big raise with a small pocket pair and flopped a set and then the raiser with AA or KK has lost his entire stack to me. For the maths to be right you only need the person to have about 8 times the size of his raise. If the buy in is 100 BBs and the raise is for 6 x BB then he only needs around 48 BBs left for you to have odds to call and as the buy in is typically 100 BBs quite often the person will have double or more what you actually need.

For the 1 time in 98 you both flop a set and you put your whole stack in and lose.....it's more than made up for by the amount of times you put your whole stack in with a set and your opponent puts his whole stack in when he doesn't have a set. When calling a big raise with a pocket pair you're only going all in when you make the set, the raiser will go all in without making the set, that's the difference. Sure you will lose money calling the raises and not flopping sets but when you hit one you usually get a big payday, as I have already said You can end up with a 16/1 or more return on your call of the bigblind depending how deep stacked the guy is. This more than makes up for the money you lose calling the raises and folding. Small amount of cash in the pot when you are behind.....flop a set.....all the cash in when you are miles ahead !