Raising when drawing...

[Beanie]

One of the basic's for new players(or atleast it seemed so to me) was that when drawing to a straight or flush you want to be seeing the next cards as cheaply as possible, and ideally for free.

However, watching a few poker games recently, and one thing that has cropped up more than a few times is players raising when drawing in order to disguise the fact that they are looking to complete a flush or straight.

It can be fairly obvious lets say with two suited cards on the flop, that if you check and then say think about and call a small raise, that you're drawing to flush, and getting paid off for it after that if it hits can be tricky as most decent players will be able to say with some certainty that you've hit your flush if a third suited card comes on the turn, and you won't be able to get much more than a couple of small raises called on the turn and river.

And having seen a few occasions where a flush is nicely disguised by betting when you only have 4 cards to it, and getting a decent pay off as a result, makes me wonder if its worthwhile?

Surely it will come down to certain table conditions, such as how many folks are in the hand, and I suppose it all depends on a trade off between how much you'll spend on the occasions you bet and miss compared to the extra pay off you get when betting and hitting.

Anyway, I'd be interested in thoughts on this.

[Doc]

there are many reasons to bet on a draw.

I go through some in this article:

http://www.punters-paradise.com/news...ting-draws.php

There are a few minor errors in the article - I wrote it in a hurry, but the general principles and most of the points are correct. It is written for limit poker, but many/most of the ideas will transfer over to NL also.

[Beanie]

Cheers Doc...good read and deep down I knew there was going to be a pot odds answer And I guess that one is fairly simple - bet when the odds say so.

[mrmuzeman]

Basically what youre gonna do is a semi-bluff. Make no real mistake here, youd rather they fold than call you when you attempt a semi-bluff. Thats the main aim to win the pot right there. However if you get called you may improve to the best hand and it will be awesomely disguised. Betting with an out some people call it.

A point that is essential is that you must feel your opponents are capable of folding their hand. If you dont think theres a decent chance theyll fold what youre doing is betting for value but you dont even have a hand yet. So you must believe theres a good chance theyll fold.

I think pure bluffs are quite overated in general terms. You should always bluff when you have outs to complete to the best hand imo. Even if it just an inside straight draw! Made hand!

[Doc]

in limit especially, but often in NL too, you can bet for value on a draw.
You can also raise the flop with the hope of getting a free card on the turn should you need it.

[mrmuzeman]

Yes this is true Doc.

Although I would say this is much more applicable to limit. I would still say you would rather see a fold than a call if you raise on a flush draw etc.

The raising which Doc talks of to see a free card, it is essential to have position on your opponent to make this play.

[ABWN]

i had a classic this week,

Community cards were 7,7,7,7,A pot was about 800 chips blinds were on 15/30

I raised all in and 2 players folded it was only a tourney but it was funny as fcuk

[aliensyndm]

it's so stupid things like that. Another one I think I saw was the board was like J J J J 6 or something, so obviously any ace is winning it.
A couple of all ins.....ooh aces of course. Nope, someone had KK and couldn't lay it down I mean talk about getting too attached to your cards !

[GETT1NLOTS]

Originally Posted by abookiesworstnightmare

i had a classic this week,

Community cards were 7,7,7,7,A pot was about 800 chips blinds were on 15/30

I raised all in and 2 players folded it was only a tourney but it was funny as fcuk

Originally Posted by aliensyndym

it's so stupid things like that. Another one I think I saw was the board was like J J J J 6 or something, so obviously any ace is winning it.
A couple of all ins.....ooh aces of course. Nope, someone had KK and couldn't lay it down I mean talk about getting too attached to your cards !

Love it.

I can't argue with much of what has been said above. For me it comes down to your position, the behaviour of other players in the pot and if the draw (should it come) make you a nuts hand or just a strong hand.

[Jezza]

Yep raising when drawing is the classic "semibluff". I think their are times it should be done, and times when it shouldn't - like all good poker decisions it depends on the situation.

Presuming you are last to act (I generally hate check/raising with standard draws - you might lead out and bet but I will talk about that later - CR'ing with draws puts more money in an already growing pot that you are out of position with and might very not well hit on the turn - ugly I think). Then raising with a draw is definately something that should be considered.

First of all, if you bet your good hands hard it is important to not always "have it" in the poker sense when you do bet/raise. This is so good players who notice your tendancies won't always make the correct decisions against you, if throw in an occasional play like this they will sometimes call with the worst of it or fold the best hand - if you dont then you will be transparant to them (not so important in low stakes internet poker but applicable nonetheless.) A good draw when you have position is prime example of this.

If you have flopped a nut flush draw (for example), someone has bet and you are last to act you have a choice to make, you are probably going to play at least until the turn (unless its something ridiculous being bet in relation to the pot) so the question is do I call or raise? Well the first thing you should look at is the number of players in the pot. If several players are in and have already flat called then you are probably best to just call. This is for several reasons. Firstly, you are getting good odds on your draw with the multiway action and would like to keep everyone in if you do hit (for the chance of the payday - maybe one of them has a lower fdraw? maybe one of them cant fold top pair if you hit? who knows but you would like them in to try anyway!). Yes your hand is not really disguised to the good players but you are getting good current pot odds anyway and you always have SOME implied odds from the donks so that is not too bad. Raising in a spot like this is likely to cause some of the players to fold and maybe 1 or poss 2 to call. This is a terrible outcome to your raise. You have taken away your good odds from everyone calling and failed to get everyone to fold, yes you might get a free card on the turn (but they might bet you anyway of course) but the whole purpose of a semibluff (well one of the major ones) is to cause your opponents to fold the best hand - and against a multiple field this is just not likely to happen (especially on the net!). IMO in a spot like that you get bigger EV by just calling along multiway than raising. However.....

When you are HU or possibly three way when the action comes to you it is a different ball game. This time your current pot odds will not be quite so good, and against 1 or 2 players you have a very good chance of causing him to (or perhaps both of them 3way) fold if you put in a decent pot sized raise with just the draw. Again like someone mentioned before me, if you DO get called then your hand is that bit more disguised than had you just flat called (a flush draw is the most obvious of all draws) and against 1 or 2 opponents they might very very well fold anyway (especially if you have a good tight image at the table).
Out of position multiway just forget it on the flop, you might as well check/call because if you bet you will get 1/2 calling and this is bad for your pot odds/equity - you will be out of position if you miss (no free card, or do you hump more money in a pot you have nothing at - ho hum bad place to be). Out of position HU is a different ball game tho, you stand a good chance of causing your opponent to fold if you bet the draw on the flop (especially if you raised preflop) and your hand is very disguised if he calls and you hit. Nothing changes the fact tho that it is an ugly place to be if he calls and you miss. You have to be able to judge these situations in a poker game for your yourself, but these are the sort of things that I think should be considered when you are weighing up a semibluff.

Jez

[mrmuzeman]

As an added note - dont pot your busted flush draw after the river, when its checked to you, just admit defeat

Never again....

[Jezza]

I tried that with a missed inside straight draw once


(and got called by bottom pair )

Jez