Folding post-flop

[A.M.P]

Somebody gave me some sh!t online beacuse in his view "if you don't make the flop you should always fold". Whats your opinion?

I'll give you a specific example. Was playing a STT with 10 seats. Blinds still smallish. Get dealt AK o so I raise the BB 3 times. I get 3 callers. I forget what the flop was, something like 10 2 8 all off suit so I bet again for the same amount. One person folded and one stuck a big re-raise in. I was medium stacked at the time so I folded. Turns out that the other guy outbluffed me.

Que the heckles from another player. I did silence him that if you should always fold in that scenario - the guy wouldnt've beaten me as he also missed the flop.

Still it got me thinking and I'd be interested in any opinions.

Cheers.

AMP

[CJ Mars]

I’d have folded this too. You’ve pretty much telegraphed your hand as being AK, AQ or a big pocket pair. The guy could be on a high pocket pair in the hole, might have hit trips (although he’d be more likely to slowplay that with such a flop) or maybe got cute and called with connectors like J10, or gapped connectors like J9. He might even have called with suited A10 or A8 say in which case you’re in deep doo doo if you call and flop an ace. You’re not getting the pot odds to call with overcards . In the long run folding in cases like this if you haven’t got a str or flush draw on will save you $$ in the long run IMO.

I’ve read in a number of places (most recently in the John Vorhaus book I mentioned in a thread below) that if there are a small number of players seeing the flop and you’ve a big hand that you should just check the hand as you’re badly out of position in acting first post flop if you miss the flop completely. I probably wouldn’t agree with that personally but it’s a good idea about deception I suppose.

[A.M.P]

Thanks CJ.

I'm a little bit confused about the second part of your post. I don't get what you mean by "big hand".

Could you explain???

Cheers,

AMP

[aliensyndm]

Well there's big hands and there's small hands

[Kiko]

Here was me coming in to read a Alien write up. Instead im stuck with an ODM-esque style reply

[GETT1NLOTS]

AMP - if you've missed the flop you shouldn't be betting into people especially if there is more than one player still in. The bloke who re raised you was an idiot by the way.

[Hippy Dave]

Originally Posted by GETT1NLOTS

The bloke who re raised you was an idiot by the way.

Why?

He may have noticed that AMP always bet the flop (i'm not saying that this is the case), he might have noticed a difference in the size of AMP's bet size. If you weren't at the table you don't know.

Whatever, he clearly had AMP down as bluffing, and knew that if he re-raised AMP would have no option but to fold.

[GETT1NLOTS]

Because AMP could easily be holding JJ, QQ, KK, AA. Because the reraiser also had nothing according to AMP. Bluffing is one thing Dave but good players that do normally have an out. In other words - if AMP's opponent had an open ended draw for a flush or a straight I might agree with you - but from what AMP has posted it seems the bloke had nothing in his hand and wasn't drawing either - it was just a bluff. Hence I think the play was idiotic.

You would have reraised with nothing there would you Dave? I've seen you play. You're tighter than a ducks arse.

[Hippy Dave]

Originally Posted by GETT1NLOTS

Because AMP could easily be holding JJ, QQ, KK, AA.

As I said, he may have picked up something from a change in AMP's play that made him quite certain that AMP had nothing. You don't know without being at the table.

Originally Posted by GETT1NLOTS

You would have reraised with nothing there would you Dave?

I would have if I was certain that he had nothing, because then he would have have to fold.

Maybe the guy that re-raised was an idiot, but you just don't know if you weren't there.

[GETT1NLOTS]

It was you wasn't it Dave?

[GETT1NLOTS]

On a serious note though I still don't agree. If AMP is daft enough (no offense AMP I'm trying to be constructive here) to raise in early position with two callers to come with AK and nothing for him on the flop then he could be daft enough to call the reraise (which he wasn't thankfully). In other words I am more likely to expect someone who has just played badly to continue to play badly - not suddenly play well in the face of a reraise. You can't apply that kind of logic here in my opinion.

Secondly I really am interested in your take on what I posted here

Bluffing is one thing Dave but good players that do normally have an out. In other words - if AMP's opponent had an open ended draw for a flush or a straight I might agree with you - but from what AMP has posted it seems the bloke had nothing in his hand and wasn't drawing either - it was just a bluff. Hence I think the play was idiotic.

I bluff when I play poker as we all do but 19/20 it will be in the circumstances I have outlined above. I'm hoping the bluff takes it but I will normally have an out as well.

[Hippy Dave]

Originally Posted by GETT1NLOTS

I bluff when I play poker as we all do but 19/20 it will be in the circumstances I have outlined above. I'm hoping the bluff takes it but I will normally have an out as well.

Of course, normally when you bluff you will be "semi-bluffing" and I'm not suggesting re-raising with nothing all the time, but I think you need to give the guy (it wasn't me btw ) a bit of credit - he may have been an idiot, but he may have been 99% certain that AMP had nothing and therefore the re-raise was the correct play.

As you said yourself 19/20 will be when you have outs, but that still leaves 5%.

[aliensyndm]

I’ve read in a number of places (most recently in the John Vorhaus book I mentioned in a thread below) that if there are a small number of players seeing the flop and you’ve a big hand that you should just check the hand as you’re badly out of position in acting first post flop if you miss the flop completely. I probably wouldn’t agree with that personally but it’s a good idea about deception I suppose.

What they mean is if you are in the small blind (first to act after flop) or big blind (2nd to act after flop) and you pick up a hand like AK or AQ.
Now assuming we are playing a cash table and there's a couple of callers.
I would not raise AK or AQ in these positions.
Position is very important in hold 'em. If you miss the flop you are in trouble.
What do you do ? Bet the pot and try and bluff it ? It might work yes but there will be alot of times when it won't work and as people love to call on the internet you'll find yourself called alot.
If you check it you've shown weakness, ie your AK or AQ has missed, either that or you have perhaps flopped a monster.

As soon as you raise pre-flop you alert people to your hand. If you do raise pre-flop in the small blind with AK and flop an ace and come out betting, most likely everyone will fold anyway. Either that or you will only be called/raised if you are beaten(or someone could be drawing).
Of course there could be numpties with rag aces that call you but hey.

Now just call in those positions with AK and flop an ace or king and people with AQ AJ or any rag ace may call a bet. But still - you've got to have a strong hand to be betting from first position with a few people after you.

[A.M.P]

Thanks for the comments everybody.

It was extremely early on in the game so I don't think he had my haphazard approach to Hold 'em down yet..

However, I play this way a lot. Indeed, I was playing this approach in the recent DP tournie and you'd be surprised how many people fold. I'm new to the game so I'm kind of experimenting with things, as much as you can with the uniqueness of the situation as commented on earlier.

I normally only employ this when there are 2 or 3 left in a hand and repeat it when I do hit on the flop.

It probably is bad play, but normally as soon as that re-raise comes I'll fold. If I spot the re-raise from the same person twice then I'll change it up.

AMP

[Doc]

I think you did fine AMP.

You were right to raise, but as I'm guessing this is the early stages (i.e. most of the 10 players still in) and you were middle position at best, I would have raised more than you did. You want to drive out players with your hand. I'd probably go 5 or 6 times the BB in the early stages.

Now next thing is that you have represented a big hand, and no-one has had the confidence to take you on (i.e. re-raise pre-flop). So there is a fair chance you have the best hand pre-flop.
IMO checking the flop is somewhat pointless, unless it is obviously dangerous (which this one isn't). If you check, someone will bet and you'll have to fold. There is a good chance that you are still ahead, and even if someone has made a pair, you still have two overcards and two cards to come. You have represented a good hand, and no-one there knows exactly what you have. You might have ATs (i.e. top pair), trip tens, trip 8's, JJ, QQ, KK, AA.
I'd bet about half the pot. If I get called then I'll shut down probably. I'm looking to win this here and now. If I get raised I'm 90% certainly going to fold.

The problem as I see it was that your bet on the flop was a waste of time. You bet less than 1/4 of the pot. That is giving odds to a lot of people to stay in and is either announcing a monster or a weak bluff at the pot. I think the guy was right to re-raise you. You showed weakness.

Against the type of hands you're probably facing I'd make you pretty even to win the pot with any other individual. Crucially though you were the raiser, so if you show strength post-flop I think you'll win often enough to justify the aggressive move.