Limit Vs No Limit

[Quandram]

Just wanted to ask opinions on this. I've mainly played NL in my poker playing life to date (on and off shade under a year). Played little bits of limit early on to see what it was like but found it a bit slow and harder to gauge the quality of hands others had.



The reason i ask opinions on the difference now is that i was entering an MTT last night on Mermaid and noticed that there were many less people in than normal. Finally twigged that it was because it was a limit game rather than NL. Spotted this just after registration had closed so cursed quietly and got on with it.



Ended up coming 2nd (of 58) which is the best finish of my limited MTT career.



Might just be my opinion but i thought it was far less to do with any particularly good play on my part as getting some luck with good hands at good times (last 3 hands before final table i got AK, AK, AA).



Not wanting to demean anyone here who plays Limit regularly but is it fair to say that it sides slightly more on cards as it's harder to bluff off or fiercely represent a really good hand when you can only raise a set amount?

[Doc]

Quandum

I'd say I am one the few people on here who plays a lot of limit. It is as different a game from NL, as Seven card stud is IMO. Many NL players will give out about limit, but when you get to the heart of it, they are simply frustrated that their strategems for NL can't be used in the same way in limit. Principally you can't control the pot odds (and neither can your opponents!) to the same extent you can in NL. Pot odds tend to be more relevant in limit, as opposed to implied odds in NL.
You can play more hands pre-flop in limit, but certain hands (e.g. suited connectors and low pairs) lose value in certain positions. You income profile (assuming you're a winning player!) in limit typically shows slow steady increase. With NL a few big pots will often determine your profit profile

[Jezza]

Hi Quandrum,

Congrats on the tourney success. Dont worry about being a card rack when it came to the crunch . Anyone who wins a tournament has been a card rack along the way at some point, you can survive without it but you definately need to hit them at the right time to win. The most important thing to do when you get a rush like this at a crucial juncture is to make the most of it and go on to win the tournament - you almost did so you did make the most of it, congratulations are definately in order!

As for NL and limit, they are just totally different games completely. limit poker was only born because of a ruling in america stating that you could only wager a fixed amount on a bet (this was way back in the past of course). This meant you got the fixed limit betting structure we see in limit today in poker and so it carried on. When these rulings got changed or whatever (I am not sure what happened to bring this about but they obv must have been changed) then of course NL poker came about, however FL was born into americas heart and NL was always in the shadows (the select few did play it, but FL was the most popular) for cash games, tourneys were where it survived. In europe pretty much everything was pot limit at this point. However with the advent of online poker NL cash exploded again and now there are vast amounts of both games to choose from.

One of the biggest differences you will see between the two games is the amount of showdowns you see. In NL not a lot of hands go to a showdown at all, but in FL practically everyone does. You therefore obviously have to have the best hand all the time when your involved to be able to win the pot! Thus it becomes more of a card catching contest and less a game of skill than NL. That is not to say limit is not a skillfull game, it is a VERY skillfull game, but the skill is merely being able to maximise a pot when you have the best hand and protect your chips when you dont. Bluffing does exist but is much much rarer than in big bet poker due to the high likehood your opponent will call for just one bet more. The thinking behind the games is completely different, almost all poker literature pre 2 years ago is centered around limit poker thinking - thus you get hand ranking charts, what not to play and what to play etc - it is much more of a science than NL (which is more of an art). Doc makes a very good point in his post about limit being all about pot odds and NL being all about implied odds, I totally agree with this.

Doc also makes the point NL players get frustrated playing limit. He's right, you cannot protect your hands the same way (no more giving people bad odds for a draw, they are almost always correct to draw at you) and this can be highly annoying, you cannot "outplay" anyone as you can never bet an amount or do some play that makes the opposition squirm and genuinely wonder what you have. I disagree with him however when he says you can play more hands preflop in limit, I think the best players are rewarded by playing very loose in NL but tight play just seems to always be generally right in limit.

The crux of it all is you cannot punish bad players as heavily in limit poker. You can never stack someone for all their money that they have, nor can you put anyone to a really tough decision - in limit they only have to worry about 1 bet. This is pretty lame to be honest, it just means you get a bunch of pansys playing at the limit tables as they dont want to be put to tough decisions . A bad decision in limit is punishing for only a few bets either way. It takes a whole night of bad decisions to seriously decimate you. In no limit just 1 single wrong decision can cost you your WHOLE stack or see you bluffed out of a gigantic pot, a lot of players fear having to make these choices and as such stick to the limit tables. Personally I would advocate limit poker to anyone starting out and wanting to learn, then NL tourneys, then small stakes NL cash before moving up.

To sum up, limit poker is just G A Y

Jez

[mrmuzeman]

This is a photo from the local card club where they play limit poker on a friday night



Thats the final table so as you can see Docs done well (the one in the yellow hat)

[Jezza]

.

[mrmuzeman]

Its called the Y.M.L.A btw

Young man, there's a place you can go.
I said, young man, when you're short on your dough (presumably from being busted playing no limit)
You can stay there, and I'm sure you will find
Many ways to have a good time.

They have everything for young men to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the boys ...

It's fun to stay at the y-m-L-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-L-a.

Ooh look at his Quads etc

[Doc]

LOL @ you boys!

I was about to complement Jez on his very even-handed reply till I saw his pictures

I agree with most of what Jez says, but there are some subtleties. There is plenty of bluffing from good limit players, but you have to be very careful about picking your moment, as it isn't that expensive to call an individual bet. However, this effect in reverse makes you a lot of money. You will get many value bets called by weak players. People are usually not, in fact, getting correct odds to draw out on you - so you generally make money when they try!

regarding the number of hands played, a good limit player will typically have a VPIP (a poker tracker term!) of around 25% at a 10 handed table. I'd suggest there are very few good NL players playing tables of 10, with a VPIP this high.

Overall they are both just very different games. I enjoy both, along with several other poker variants. I would agree though with Jez, that limit is a good starting place - as you can learn a lot about basic poker play, pot odds etc, and at the low levels a very mechanistic approach can keep you out of major trouble. NL isn't as forgiving for a beginner.

[Quandram]

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

You've basically confirmed what i thought but done so in a rather more terminoligically (if i can't make up words on my birthday when can i) sophisticated manner.

[mrmuzeman]

Yeah I did good didnt I

[aliensyndm]

Not really alot more to add to this thread. Most of the points have been covered. I think it's good to be a decent player in as many forms of poker as you can. Being good at one doesn't necessarily mean you are good at another. There are different skills needed for each. Limit hold 'em and No Limit hold 'em aren't different in as much as what cards you are dealt, rounds of betting etc but the betting itself completely changes the entire game into one of totally different skills.

You then get other poker variants like 5 card stud, 7 card stud. Now all of a sudden memory becomes very important. A good stud player will know every single card that has been folded, not an easy thing to do. Of course memory of pot odds, how other players play etc still comes into all forms of poker really but in games like hold 'em you aren't having to memorise big groups of cards the way a good stud poker player will. A simple example of the importance of this might be if your hand was something like (K) K Q 7 2
Cards in brackets are face down. And your opponent was showing (?) A 8 6 4
If you knew for a fact the other three aces had been folded you'd know your hand was a winner. However if you hadn't been paying attention you wouldn't be quite so sure.


You then get games like 5 card draw where no cards are shown face up at all and you have to work out what your opponent has from how many cards he exchanged, his betting and from any other tells you can gather. No face up cards are shown hence you have no idea what he could have.
A good example of a simple tell would be if your opponent draws three cards, most likely drawing to a pair. Upon looking at his three new cards he checks very quickly. This is almost certain that he didn't improve his hand. If he did improve his hand he'd have to pause for just even half a second to consider what to do, ie either check or bet. The very quick check suggest no improvement was made as no thought is needed. You can safely bet 2 pair upwards into this person now.

At end of day No limit hold 'em is the most widely played poker game on the planet by a mile and that's the one you really wanna be learning first and foremost I would suggest. It can be an unforgiving game though so make sure when you are learning you are playing at levels low enough that you feel comfortable with and aren't scared to go all-in or call an all-in. Tournaments can be quite a good way to start as if you do go all in worst that is happening is that you lose your entry fee. Of course tournament strategy is slightly different to cash games but being good at both is certainly helpful !

[rene]

Played only Limits to date Q. It´s surer for me. I´m a beginner of Poker - play only a few times a month and for fun - notto earn money. I bought a Pokerset with 500 Chips and two decks in a case, wait for the package from the seller.

Cause I want to play a little bit offline.

I like the Limit Poker I can make some mistakes without to lose much money