Tough cash game play

[mrmuzeman]

A toughie here that annoyed me

Ill do $1/$2 stakes for the example. Assume all players have $200 stacks and no knowledge of their playing standard is available and its full ring cash table.

QQ in mid position. Early opens for $16. You call with QQ. Button calls $16 also. 3 take the flop.

Q J 10 with 2 clubs

You have top set. Early checks. You bet $40 into the $50 pot.

Button minimum raises (yuck) to $80 so $40 more to you. Early folds. Pot stands at $170. You call.

Turn - A spades

You have $100 left. You check. Button bets $100. What do you do?

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Hated that hand Flop top set and not like it. Heres my take on events...

I flat call the pre flop bet, its a very large one at 8bb and I dont expect anyone else to play behind me if I call because of that, so i will have position on the flop (I thought). If I raise I have to put in a large proportion of my stack as im going to be having to put in at least 25bb. Not too sure about doing that with QQ here as early could have a monster in AA or KK. If he re-raises all in after I raise its pretty shite for me to say the least. I think a flat call is fine here, what would you guys have done?

On the flop once its checked to me, I have to bet it I think. When the flop comes down im like sweet top set!! but then you realise AK has the straight already and thats a very likely hand for one of these to have tbh I think. So I bet, I have to bet there cos of the potential straight and flush draws so make it near pot size. Would you bet and how much?

When the guy min raised it screamed AK to me. What do you guys think? To me min raise looks a very likely AK doing a value reraise (although not a play id make with the scary board fwith flush draw for sure). It just looked bad there to me and I thought AK was very likely, it kind of made sense. I would call an all in bet here for sure if he made it. An all in bet I would say has a big draw to me, maybe clubs and a pair or even a lower set/2pair could totally make that move. But the min raise? Its pretty dodgy for any of those hands I just described to make that move after Ive shown strength, hmm.

I simply cannot lay down top set here imo. So its to call or re-raise all in. Which is the better play? With the info I have im accepting going in behind if im right on the AK so I chose to call and hope to hit a Q, J or 10 on the turn. Im 7 outs there so thats 5.5/1ish to house up. Theres $170 in pot which is only 4/1 odds BUT Im pretty sure Ill get my remaining $100 at the back paid off if I hit, which means there a potential $270 in the pot, which gives me more like 6.5/1.

Once the Ace hits the turn I check cos any king now makes a straight if he didnt already have it anyway. Once he bets me all in there $300ish in the pot and I think I have to fold there so I did. What size bet would you have called on the turn?

[GETT1NLOTS]

I flat call the raise (I hate QQ as much as I hate AQ, AJ, A10 and KQ)

The flop comes 10 J Q and it is checked to me? - I bet like you do to see where I stand.

If I'm reraised I should fold. (Based on no other info).

[GETT1NLOTS]

I expect someone who is drawing after the flop to normally flat call (especially a rainbow flop). If I'm reraised I'm in the shit. Especially with my table image.

[mrmuzeman]

Yes Gett1n I agree but only a min raise, you fold your top set there? If he goes all in there im calling in that pot faster than a very fast thing.

[GETT1NLOTS]

That said - if I take the guy to be a bluffer or drawing or loose or all three I will go all in after the reraise at NL and put him to the test. Sorry to be vague but poker is about playing the people and not the cards as you know MrM

[GETT1NLOTS]

Originally Posted by mrmuzeman

Yes Gett1n I agree but only a min raise, you fold your top set there?

It's about the player MrM as you know. Normally a minimum raise screams strength as you know. An 'all in' can show someone who is drawing and doesn't want a call.

It's a toughy as you haven't posted player opinions (TAG, LAG etc)

[christianu]

This exact thing happened to me MrM and I posted it in here.

I was raised form early 5xbb and im holding QQ on the small blind, now I re raised here to 10xbb to see what im up against, and I thought I probably have the best hand.

Flop comes 10 J Q, he checks, I bet and he re raises me and I go all in only to be called by AK. Its just a sickener really isnt it.

After the re raise though, there became so much in the pot that I even had odds to house up once I went all in. Id of re-raised initially with QQ myself Muse given your position on the initial raiser and the strength of the hand.

[christianu]

And also on the flop I would of bet around the amount you had, and once im re raised I probably would of plonked them all in.

[mrmuzeman]

Aye Chris I do remember that mate

once im re raised I probably would of plonked them all in.

Aye you cant argue with that strategy at all tbh. You are only behind against AK (realistically he doesnt have 98 does he). Just accept the cold deck if it comes I guess. Thing is that bloody min raise just spelt it out for me you know. Still its not definite of course by any means but it does bloody look like AK there with the min raise.

Id of re-raised initially with QQ myself Muse given your position on the initial raiser and the strength of the hand.

Thats also a decent point. Although in this occasion it was 8bb raise from him which is a very big raise and it makes it harder to re-raise here in some ways and not be committed somwhat. I may well have re-raised like you did if I didnt have position on him though i think. But I did have position here so im fine with the call pre-flop.

Cheers for your thoughts Chris

By the way I said in the chat 'i hated laying that down did you have the King' and he said 'I had it already on the flop'. Of course could be a lie but I think he did have it cos I didnt say did you have AK yet he still said he had it already on the flop if you see what I mean.

[christianu]

Yep muse, stinks of the AK, just as I "knew" I was up against AK. Maybe that turn was a blessing allowing you to get away from such a dangerous situation. That probably isnt much consolation as its never nice losing such big pots.

Given it was an 8xBB raise you wouldnt know what to think as thats pretty outrageous, I may have just flat called here, but then your in a very difficult position if the flop comes 3 7 9 and he bets massive again, at least with an initial min re raise before the flop you get quite a definite answer. Another re raise and you probably should fold, a call and you know your up against most likely a smaller pocket pair or AK or AQ,AJ suited.

You still playing every night muse?

[mrmuzeman]

Yep all fair points (altho I just dont like min raising at all ). Flat calling can be good cos it disguises my hand somewhat I could literally have anything really, barring crap obviously. If I raise it flags big pair instantly and I dont get the chance of flopping a set and busting his AA or KK then cos hell re-raise again.

Yeah mate pretty much every night, when I get my new computer and all that jazz ill be playing shitloads (in the process of ordering it) and taking it from there

[christianu]

Its the sweet life MrM Wish I never withdrew my bankroll and played so silly, the money I was making got to my head Im going to get back into the proper swing of things soon and join you, be like old times, were living the dream Muse!

[aliensyndm]

You're just a bit better than 4-1 to fill up on the river hence you can't call that $100. If he had another few hundred dollars sat in front of him I think the $100 is callable as it would be pretty hard for him to lay that down and hence implied odds are there. You couldn't really have asked for a worse card on the turn, other than a king perhaps. Disgusting to flop top set and end up in trouble isn't it ?

[mrmuzeman]

Yeah Alien it sucks so how would you play this hand mate?

[Jezza]

Urgh, long time no see guys....anyway......

Preflop
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I think the flat call is probably the best option. Reraising would not be too bad either but with deep cash game play a flat call is OK. If you reraise you are probably not getting any action from a good player unless you are beat - although you could very well be ahead at the moment you have position after the flop and can possibly win a nice pot here. If it was a short stack I would certainly reraise them to set them in but since he is deep also a flat call is good. I would put him on TT or higher pocket pair or AK, if he is a tight player. The button flat call is a bit unexpected but you certainly have him beat at the moment, I would put him on a pocket pair, AK or possibly suited connectors.

The flop
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Aha this is a good flop - Top set! But of course AK (a likely holding for someone here) is the nuts. However you have a very good hand at the moment that is for sure. There is no way you can slowplay this tho, loads of straight draws and an obvious flush draw make the next card very possibly a painful one and you have to make people pay to stay in here. Early checks - this is very surprisng - how can this flop miss him? He is NOT checking AA or KK here (or even JJ or TT probably). We can only presume he eiher has AK and is planning to checkraise or he was full of shit and has missed totally - when checked to here I am definately going to bet, we can consider early if he gives us action but I am not letting the button have a free card in this spot so I definately bet (50 into a 50 pot for me, but your sizing was fine I think). You then get min raised (urgh) by the button, early folds (so he was full of shit - low pocket pair I guess lol) and its back to you. This is pretty tough. a min raise SCREAMS strength usually as it is obviously begging to be called. AK fits both his preflop play (calling a large raise) and his flop play here. To be perfectly frank if I had AK in this spot I would raise huge due to the coordinated nature of the board but a min raise is perfectly possible from a weak player holding a nut straight. You now have a tough decision. It is not certain he has AK. He MIGHT be min raising you with the flush draw, this is a play you do see a lot of (to try and get the free card) - low chance of this but definately possible. He also could well have JJ or TT and think his set is good at the moment ( again a donkey play to min raise with this board but obv it floats his boat). All these hands you have crushed. If he DOES have AK then you still have a decent enough draw against him. but seeing as you are out of position and plenty of cards give you a horrible decision on the next street(s) I would far prefer to play this pot all in now than flat call. This is due to your stack size in relation to the pot. After you call his min raise there is 210 in the pot and you have 100 at the back. This is a definate move in time. Dont flat call with only 100 at the back as you can leave yourself in a horrible spot on the turn as you found yourself in. By getting the money in now you have at least 33% equity approx if he has AK and you are getting sufficient pot odds to go through with your hand with that, there is also a definate chance you have him beat.

It should be said that if the stacks were significantly deeper, say you had both been winning at the table and both had 600 that a flat call would be best then - you would probably want to outdraw him and either check/fold the turn to a huge bet (or pay to draw if he prices you in wrong) or get the money in when you have a house

Jez