STT or MTT

[A.M.P]

Had an interview for doing that as did similar A levels.

fcuked the interview up on the LIFE exchange though. It seems unless you know someone the way is to get a secondment and work for almost free 12 hours a day. Still, the rewards in the end I'd imagine are worth it.

I can reccommend an excellent fictional account of a bond trader called "The bombadiers". Cracking read.

Have to get back to the tournie, but will start a thread soon about playing two pair as I hate the bast!ds and always seem to hit a flush / straight. Is there a way to preventive bet or do you just hang in and hope?

All in QQ

Bye!

[aliensyndm]

OK from a pure maths point of view, the answers are...

Call in 3, 4 and 6 and fold the rest.

As people have said, you wanna work out how many outs you have.
OK so any 9 or any A. That's 8 outs altogether.
You're drawing to an open ended straight draw.
Now if you have learnt your pot odds/drawing hand percentages you'll instantly know you have a 17.4% chance of making this hand, or 4.75 to 1 chance. Obviously you don't need to learn it exactly, a close approximation is fine. Or as the article suggests with jsut the river to come you can double the amount of outs you have and add 2 to get the percentage.. Hence (8 x 2) + 2 = 18% That's pretty close to the actual figure of 17.4%
i would suggest you learn the straight and flush draw chances first as they are very common scenarios.

Anyway it's a 17.4% chance.

Now you have to look at each pot indivdually and figure out whether it's worth putting money into it. Forget whatever money you've already put into the pot. If it's in the pot, it's not yours anymore.

Scenario 1 - Player A's $6 bet and the original $6 make for a pot of $12.
It's costing you $6 to win this $12. You need odds of 4.75 to 1.
Are you getting these odds ? Hopefully it should be obvious straight away that you are not. You are only getting odds of 2 to 1. Hence fold.

Scenario 2 - PLayer A and B's money + original pot = $18
Now you have to call $6 to win an $18 pot. What kind of odds does this give you ? Is it anywhere near the 5 to 1 you need ?(note I've rounded the 4.75 to 1 up there just to make it a little simpler).
$6 to win $18 is only odds of 3 to 1, hence fold.

Scenario 3 - Player A,B,C,D and Es' money plus original pot = $36
$6 to win $36. Are you getting odds here ? You are getting 36 to 6, which by simplifies down to 6-1. We know from before you need at least 4.75 to 1 to make a call here. As you are getting greater odds than the required 4.75 to 1, you call.

Scenario 4 - PLayer A's money plus orignal pot = $7
$1 to win $7. 7 to 1 odds. You call.

Scenario 5 - Player A's money plus original pot = $21
$15 to win $21. Now you are getting odds of 21 to 15.
Clearly this is nowhere near the 4.75 to 1.
This large bet is the kind of bet you would make if you had a very strong hand after the turn to make it expensive for people to draw against you and give them bad odds. As you can see from the above examples...bet $1 and they have odds to draw. Bet $15 and their odds are horrid.

Scenario 6 - PLayer A,B,C,D,Es' money plus original pot = $81
$15 to win $81. This is idds of 81 to 15. Now in this scenario the maths don't work out all nice and neat the way they did in the other ones so you gotta work it out. One way is to keep a calculator handy and use that.
Fine if you are playing online, not quite so handy in live games.
So you really need to be able to get some sort of approximation in your head.
Quite how isn't important as long as it's quick and it's accurate.

There what I would suggest is think about what money you would need.
OK $15 it costs. I need odds of approximately 5 to 1 for this call to be worthwhile ok ? So I need 5 times more money in the pot than it costs me to call the bet. 5 x 15 = 75. Is there $75 or more in the pot ? Yes there is $81, hence call.

This pot also has great implied odds. Implied odds are bets that are likely to go in the pot in the near future. In scenario 6 after you call there's gonna be a fair amount of cash in the pot. If you make your hand you are guranteed to win it. But you are also guranteed to win any other bets and for a pot that size it is very likely there will be more bets in an attempt to win the pot.
Also if someone has a hand that is very hard to get off, like say someone made 666 on the turn.......it's gonna be a tough play for them to fold such a large pot with a hand like that. If the pot was for $6 of course.....are they gonna stick their whole stack in to win it ? No. When the pot's for $81, it's a bit harder to get off.


Ok people seem to have done pretty well there. That's the basic kinda idea in it's simplest form. Keep an eye out during your play and see if you can notice things like this. Also if you are playing cash watch for people who draw cards to hands like flushes and straights when there are no odds for them.
You want these people to be calling your bets when you have a hand and they are drawing. Sure it's annoying when they hit yes, but you have to make sure you don't pay off their hand when they do hit. But there's plenty more times when they won't hit, and this is what makes you money - people calling bets without odds.


Obviously things get alot more complicated than that and there are many other factors to consider than just the maths. In the above example it was nice cos you were guranteed to win if you hit your hand. Had there been a flush draw out as well it can get messy. Had it been on the flop with 2 cards still to come it's all a bit different. Anyway I gotta jam for a bit but I'll post up some more later and see how yoy get on with them.

[Doc]

Christianu

someone betting $1 into a $6 pot is showing no strength and is giving odds on someone to draw out on him. Even with the nuts you wouldn't slow-play it like this, given that the flop has been checked. He is telling you he has something, or maybe he is making a weak bluff at the pot.
It doesn't matter what cards you have here, you HAVE to raise him. He doesn't know what you have - you might have pocket 6's for all he knows, or top pair with a weak kicker.

Consider what can happen:

1) You raise and he re-raises
2) You raise and he calls
3) You raise and he folds

we can more or less discount (1), as it would be a very odd play to make, and unless it was a very large-reraise you'd possibly still have pot odds to draw
as for (3) you take the money ($7)
If we take (2) you know that you will make your hand (the nuts) 8/46 times - approx 17%. Those times you will make AT LEAST $11 for your $5 bet.
Additionally, if he is betting on a pair lower than tens, you will draw out on him by pairing one of your hole cards 6/46 times - 13%

So about 30% of the time you are making a profit of $11, or an average 'expected profit' of $3.30. 70% you lose your $5, i.e. an expected loss of $3.50. So in net terms, just on him calling (and neglecting any extra bets you might win) you expect to lose $0.20 on the call.

BUT, you would expect to make more than this with the times you bully him out of the pot. Every time you bet and he calls you lose 20c, every time you bet and he folds you win $7. Even if he only folds 3% of the time, look what happens:
97% of the time you lose 20c, 3% of the time you win $7
That is 19.7c lost and 21c gained, i.e. you win 1.3c every time you make this play.

In reality I'd expect to see him fold 90% of the time here.

[aliensyndm]

Yeah Im not saying all play there was correct etc...it's purely an example to try and illustrate pot odds. They are pots you could call, from a maths point of view. Scenario 3 I think a small raise may not be a bad idea. Most people from the table will probably call it again, and if not you already have the required pot odds. One thing is though you do not want to be re-raised. Well not unless everyone else calls all the re-raises as well. To be a nit picky bastard doc you suggested raising 5-10, you couldn't raise 5 as that would be an under-raise, the minimum raise would of course be 6

Scenario 4 you'd have to judge your man. What is the $1 bet for ? Does he want a cheap card ? Is he trying to slow play a monster ? Has he got a pair of 6s ? A bit more info on the person would probably be helpful in deciding what to do. Personally I'd probably just call the $1, if you raise he might re-raise you back in which case you are in shit......as you then have no odds.
If he's trying to slow play a set it is of course awful play....you can call the $1 having odds and you might get a nice pay off if you hit. Even if you make the hand, he checks the river, you bet and he folds, you intially still had odds to call the $1 bet.

[aliensyndm]

I think that is a good example of whilst maths can help you, judging your opponent is a key thing here.
I mean a very loose-weak player betting $1 into a pot is a bit different to a tight as feck agressive player doing it.
Is the person betting the $1 a calling station ? Ie is he gonna call your bets even if he only has ace high ?
What does the $1 represent/mean ? Does he want a cheap card ? Does he have a low pair ? Is he trying to get some money in a pot where he has trips ?
Note that would be a bad play as he's making it far too cheap for people to outdraw him.
If he had the nuts at the time.......a bad player might play it like that.
Is he/she a bad player ?
I mean there's a whole lot of factors you have to weigh up and try and make a decision.
But if you are unsure - you can always just say ok I have odds to call.....I shall just call.
In situations like that experience probably plays a part. I mean I'd be wary of making that play on some friday night piss head, he might do something mental like re-reraise me all in. Or be unable to fold no matter what he had.
As they say, you can bluff a strong player, but a weak player will call regardless. That play I'd regard as a semi-bluff, which is quite an important play. Anyway I'll go try dream up some more examples for pot odds.

[aliensyndm]

OK here goes......This time I'll include what is the best play in the answer as well as what are the correct odds etc.

OK you are in last position again You have A10 spades.

There's been 4 callers in front(A,B,C,D) of you for $1 each, and your $1 makes $5 in the pot.

The flop comes K-spades 10-diamonds 2-spades

Right this time I'm gonna name a few scenarios without even bothering to work anything out first. I'll wait and see the replies then figure it out myself and see if I came to the same conclusions

Scenario 1 - Player A bets $5, B+C fold, D calls

Scenario 2 - Player A bets $5, B raises to $10, C+ D fold

Scenario 3 - All players check round to you

Scenario 4 - Player A bets $5, B raises to $10, C re-raises to $30

Scenario 5 - Players A B and C check, Player D bets $10.


Ok see what you make of them.

[christianu]

Not going to go into detail and there are so many variables its hard to say what is the definite "correct play".

Scenario 1- Call
Scenario 2- Call
Scenario 3- Bet $1-3
Scenario 4- Call
Scenario 5- Fold

Not sure really

[A.M.P]

Again, playing at the moment but my inital reaction would be to fold (just won an extremely lucky all in - my AQ o bested JJ and an AK due to Q and an A appearing!)

Sorry, fold 1,2,4

More later.

AMP

[A.M.P]

Secnario 3 - Bet 5

Senario 5 - Probably the wrong thing to do but I'd call as
he misht be trying to buy the pot and the
possibility of at least one more caller. I
know the possibilityis there that everyone
could fold but I wouldn't want to give that hand
up to a late position bet.

AMP

[aliensyndm]

I'll wait and see if anyone else fancies a stab at them then post up what I might try. Of course this is gonna be slightly more compicated as there's alot more to consider than just pot odds etc. But it's all good

[A.M.P]

Am appreciating the guidance

[aliensyndm]

Be good if some of the more experienced players(doc, gett1n etc ??) posted up their views as well, so people are getting more than just my slant on it

[A.M.P]

Well, a demoralising session today with a combination of p!ss poor play on my part and running into flushes after going all-in in tournaments (you know the kind, 4 of one suit get turned over and your hands blown away) has just ended with me qualifying for level 3 in the laddies ladder tournament.

I'm going to follow the advice of Jedd (sp?) on PL and use the tokens to keep playing level 2 before stepping it up.

Good night all,

AMP

[Doc]

Quick thoughts:

1 - I'd be very leery here. Would depend on what I knew of the players. A pot size bet from early position says he has a very strong hand. I might call if I had a big stack, but I'd want the flush to continue

2 - Fold. A may re-raise and I'm in trouble.

3 - Bet about $4. If someone is trapping, I can get away from it. I want to bet enough so that one bad call from 'A' doesn't make it ok for others to draw.

4 - I'd fold so fast you wouldn't believe it!

5 - I'd be very careful here and what I do depends on what I know of the player and how many chips he has. If that is most of his stack and I know he aggressively tries to buy pots, then I might call. Other than that I think I'd bide my time. 2xPot is a big bet!

[aliensyndm]

Scenario 3 - I'd probably bet 4-5$ as a semi-bluff. If everyone folds fine, you win the pot. If you get 1 or 2 callers well it's not disastrous by any means.
Plenty cards to help your hand. It's quite possible any callers will check round to you again on the turn, so you can take a free card off if you miss your flush draw. A check raise is of course the play that would give you the biggest decision.
If you bet say $5 and were check raised to some ridiculously large like $20, you have to fold. A check raise is usually the sign of a monster, like 222 or even 10 10 10. It of course depends who check raised you, 2 pair here is not good enough a hand to slow play, well no hand here is cos of flush draw really. You'd have to work out is it a bad player check raising 2 pair. Is it a good player thinking you've made a position bet and trying to catch you out etc etc. Either way for such a big check raise, I'd fold.
If it was just say bet $5, check raise to $10. Now you could perhaps call and draw for the flush. But if you hit it, you have to bet it heavy.
If a person is playing something like 222, which is the kinda hand you would expect from a check-raise you can't let them make a full house. Especially dangerous would be if you made the flush with a card that paired the board.
Nut flush v Full house is always a sure way for the flush to lose lots of cash.

Scenario 1 - A pot sized bet from first to play should be a very strong hand. You would have to be a little wary of this. Of course alot depends on what you know of him. If he is not a good player it's quite likely he could have called with a hand like KJ and bet his pair of kings. Or he could have called with K10(not a good hand to call with anywhere really(It's also possible he could be on a flush draw himself.
Anyway I'd call the bet and see what the turn brings. Then of course see how the betting goes. See what happens with the betting if the flush hits, see what happens if it doesn't and then make your decision.

Scenario 4 - You have to bin your hand. You have to assume you are up against some very strong hands - and you are drawing. You could also make your hand and lose. PLus it's likely to be very expensive for you to draw anyway.


Scenario 5 - This is a strange bet. Two x pot size. Now you'd have to judge the player here. Is this a late position bet trying to "buy" the pot. Is the person a numpty player ? Does he only have say $20 left and is trying to double himself up ? A bet like that is often the kind of bet a person with few chips left will make with top pair with shite kicker. Those kind of situations can be tough decisions where experience can help alot in making a decision.

Scenario 2 - Early position bets and raises. They should be decent hands. Well you would expect so from decent players, but we haven't mentioned player strength of course. Note JQ is a common calling hand for people and with K102 flopped there's a straight draw, so a raise could also be someone drawing to a straight. Quite a common play when drawing is to raise someone's initial bet, then they will check the turn to you. Hence if you miss your draw you can take off a free card. It's quite common though and good players will see this. In this position if I had reason to believe A wouldn't re-raise I might call. If he does re-raise then you is in a bit of trouble.
If others are drawing you have to be careful you don't walk into their hands.
Say the turn is an ace, that gives you 2 pair, Aces and Tens. But it's also just made anyone with JQ the nut str8.
Sometimes with drawing hands you have to figure is it gonna be worth your while to draw ? Is the person gonna pay me off or are they able to lay down their hand ? A numpty will call with his nut straight even if a flush hits.
But a decent player shouldn't pay you off. If indeed an ace did hit it wouldn't be a total disaster, as well as a nut flush draw you have two 10s and two aces to help you. You could well be winning anyway, but you have to be very wary you don't pay off someone's hand.


Ok in above example say you call and A calls, the turn is an ace.
It's checked round to you. Now you could perhaps argue a case for betting this so people will check the river but, there's a good chance if someone is playing JQ they will check raise you. So I'd check the turn.
If you hit your flush and there's no board pair, sweet you have the nuts, try and get as much as you can from them. If you hit your flush and the board pairs you have to be slightly warier as you can be beaten.
If the river falls a blank and one of them comes out betting, you gotta be prepared to bin your hand, they obviously don't want the hand checked down, hence are betting it. If it gets checked round to you, well you check.
If you are beaten by JQ you'll be check-raised. If someone else on a flush draw missed they wont call you anyway. If someone was playing a set like 222, they may check raise you as well. You're basically only going to be raised if beaten here. It's doubtful anyone would just call and lose. It's possible of course, a bad player might have KQ, think it was still worth a shout and call. But it's not worth the risk of being check raised.
Any money you make from such calls is offset by the money you lose from check raises.

I've seen some stupid shit happen before like......the river is dealt and people check round to the last guy, he bets $1. Someone then re-raises him all in, he calls and loses. I mean wtf ? $1 ???

Anyway that's my initial thoughts on the hands but it's by no means difinitive or "correct".