STT or MTT

[GETT1NLOTS]

Generally speaking I think the value of the by-in is immaterial - it is just that at the lower buy-ins the numpty phase might last longer. Once these guys have blown themselves out, then play continues more or less as normal - expcept that you have more weak players still involved maybe - so good poker play will be rewarded even more.

Interesting but again I don't agree. (I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it by the way).

Here's why I disagree.

Freeroll
Say you have AJ suited and you're on the BB. It's early and everyone has 1,000 chips to start. Mid position raises 100 and late position re raises 300. I would call without hesitation as I know in freerolls people are looking to double up quick and they will play with A Rag, KJ, 54, Q10 etc.

$50 buy in
Same situation (position, cards, bets). I would fold as the re raise tells me that I am probably behind and the raise in mid position is a threat too.

Also I disagree with your 'numpty' assertion. Not because I happen to disagree with you (and ergo become that numpty you are talking about) but because I don't believe that the AJ call I describe above in the freeroll situation is a muppet play. If anything I think it is a smart play given the circumstances. This is what I describe as having 'game'. Irrespective of jokes, reputations and what we do for a living anyone can play by the numbers. Anyone. Having 'game' and knowing when to employ it is what seperates the bad from the average, the average from the good and the good from the excellent.

This has nothing to do with what the PLAYERS have shown me thus far in a tournement. This is to do with the tourney I happen to be in and the styles of play I see adopted (generally) before I even start.

As a result it is simplistic in the extreme to say this is a style you should adopt in a tournement at any given stage. It needs to be broken down much more than that.

[aliensyndm]

Here's Doc's reply, as it hasn't appeared yet on new server...


I think you're mad!

against two random hands (and we have to assume they are stronger than random here to raise and reraise) you have only a 48% chance of winning with AJs. They also have position on you!

If we assume that the first raiser had a Group 4 or better (a la Sklansky) hand, and the re-raiser had a group 3 or better, then your chance is down to 23%.

Quite honestly if you call from this position, early in a tournament - you're a fool. You'll find yourself out of the tournament way more often than you win the showdown. You can't have real confidence in any flop except a flush in your suit, or a KQT (or something like trip Aces or trip Jacks). If you really want to play, I'd think an all-in here would be better than a call. At least that way you have a decent chance of scaring out someting like JJ (65% favourite against you) or TT (a 55% favourite heads up against you) on a "squeeze play". Like Ken says, you can wait and find a much better time to put your chips in the pot.

Re what I said being simplistic - of course it is - but these are guidelines. When you understand the game, and in particular the principles behind the guidelines, then you can start to be creative.

[christianu]

Gonna give this a good read later as somehow i missed it. Kiko you still playing at Coral? Doing the STT's at Willhill myself, making tidy profit on £1 buy ins. Just small steps for me.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Yeah man - taking the step up into STT's. Playing from $18 on $5 buy ins. Did pretty good, got up to $60, just felt daring and went into a $20 buy in and won it. So im chuffed. Would post pic up if i could remember the image hosting site.

[christianu]

Nice one Kiko mate, check the britain thread you did to see what i was up too. Interesting i tell ya!

Yep i aint got a job so its only small amounts for me, im testing my skills and as soon as im sure theres profit to be made for me in these STT's ill move up the buy in ladder. My record at the moment stands: (i kept count)

7 - 10
2 - 10
3 - 10
1 - 10
1 - 10
9 - 10
2 - 10
5 - 10
6 - 10
1 - 10

£5 for first, £3 for second, £2 for third.

Making some tidy profit as i said, obviously yhte higger buy in you go, the better quality players but at the moment im taking to it like a duck to water.

Aye i love Poker

Anyway Kiko im in the middle of organising a Poker league for this place, a game each week and points for places and then prizes, mods have given it the thumbs up upto now, just gotta put forward my full ideas, so look out for it!

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Nice one - look forward to it.

If im being honest - i havent found much difference in standard from where i played a $5 buy in or a $20 buy in. If you are patient and only play with good hands you will do alright. A lot comes down to luck also. This time is great aswell, played against a couple of drunk morons that are going for all in's with the most ridiculous hands. Its great!

[christianu]

Easy money mate!

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Just won a $5 buy in and got $25. Im on a great lucky winning streak. One more before bed then i will call it a night in profit.

[christianu]

Good on ya Kiko

Just come 2nd in my last one, onto another now with umpteen all ins going around.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Going alright again - good luck yourself too!


Alien - ive tried understanding these calculations but its all foreign too me. I was never good at maths in school - Im a computing boy, although a not very good one!

[aliensyndm]

Hmm stick with them. I'll see if I can find a better article. It's very important you know these.

[A.M.P]

Guys,

Making some interesting reading as I'm newly addicted myself. As such I normally play 15c/30c NL and I've recently started on the ladder tournaments at ladbrokes.

The first time I gave it a go I got all the way to L3 and finished fourth. For me (as you were alluding to earlier) the timing of the tournaments does alter the standard a bit but not the first few levels. Being in a GMT + 7 hours this has seen me put in a few 4 am finishes in recent times but I doubt anybody is drunk by 9pm in England.

The problem I'm worrying about at the moment is that I've qualified for the next level several times now but it always feel like I've scrapped in by the skin of my teeth (i.e I've been the 3rd highest in chips). I'm thinking that I need to play STT's on the side to keep that side of my game up as when you hit the big boys table you may aswell go for it.

I've just discovered Bet365 "Rounders" and note that they have 7 levels or so, with the top two qualifying. I fancy giving that a go as I find I prefer the 5 buck 3 way winner-takes all tournaments at 365, then playing with two extra seats to win only slightly more at Ladbrokes. Why at Ladbrokes does it not show your hands immediately when you go all in? This really p!sses me off. I beat some guy the other day and I never got to see what he had - which is denying me information I paid for!

Speaking of Ladbrokes I've also found they've got the biggest collection of sh!t talkers on that site aswell, always complaining of "Luck". I got embroiled with two lads the other day (as I'm not above that kind of thing!) and one of them challenged me to a $50 head-to-head. It was pretty even but I won two hands back to back when the big blinds came in and that was that. I then went back to the cash table and want all-in against his mate with a nut A10 straight. It was definitely a good day.

Alien, cheers for that article. I managed to pick the gyst of it up and it's something as a new player I'm always trying to be mindful of. Just to check though these odds are when you are fishing for a decent hand though aren't they? For example if I've got an open eneded straight or looking to hit the flush and somebody raises that's when they come into play I assume?

I'd be interested in that link you mention r.e hand calculations, as I'm dead boring like that and could do with any help I can get.

Best of luck to you all,

AMP

[aliensyndm]

Yeah they are for drawing hands when you have 4 cards to a flush or 4 cards to a straight. You don't wanna be getting too bogged down in shit loads of pot odds straight away. I mean as you play you will sorta "naturally" learn them if you are paying attention. As often you will end up drawing to a flush or whatever and have to see if it's worth your while. I'd suggest at least learn the odds for drawing to a flush and drawing to a straight with both turn and river to come and just river to come, as these are 2 very common scenarios.

Right I'll try and give a rather over simplified example for demonstration purposes. OK Im not saying all the plays here are necessarily the correct plays etc, it's just an example to try and show pot odds.


OK I'll call the players letters, A,B,C etc.

Game is NL hold 'em. You are last to act.

You are dealt 10J spades on the button. PLayers C,D and E have all called for $1 in front of you. You call for $1. The small blind(player A) calls the $0.50 and the big blinds(PLayer B) checks. So there's $6 in the pot.

OK the flop comes out Qclubs Kspades 2diamonds.

OK first thing you wanna see what your hand can make.
You have the nut straight draw. Either an ace OR a 9 will give you the nut straight.

OK lets say everyone checks it round to you. So you decide to check it and take the free card hoping to make your straight.


The turn comes out 6 hearts.


OK that's no help.


Ok now this is where it gets interesting.


Scenario 1 - Player A bets $6, everyone folds round to you

Scenario 2 - Player A bets $6, player B calls, everyone else folds to you

Scenario 3 - Player A bets $6, players B,C,D and E call, then it's you to play

Scenario 4 - Player A bets $1, everyone folds round to you

Scenario 5 - Player A bet $15, everyone folds round to you

Scenario 6 - PLayer A bets $15, players B,C,D and E call, then it's you to play


OK question is what to do you do in each of those scenarios and why ?
It's all going to be a bit over-simplified but hopefully it will demonstrate pot odds. I'll elaborate the over simplifications afterwards.

I'll not post the anwers just yet, see if anyone wants to have a stab at them first.

[Doc]

I know! I Know!

Pick me teacher!

[A.M.P]

Playing a ladder tournie as I write but my initial assesment of the situation would be to first work out how many outs you had. Now, having missed the flush draw you're just going for the straight, which is open ended and has 8 outs.

You can now see 4 cards on the board and the two in your hand, leaving 46 unseen. Therefore the pots odds to make your "gamble" on the river worthwhile are (46-8/8) = roughly 4 to one.

Now, onto the scenarios. If the initial pot before raising was $6 and everyone folds to you after a $15 raise I'd fold.

Scenario Two. Total pot =$18 bucks. I'm only getting a 2.1 payout so again I'd fold.

So, doing the rest in my head using the same logic I'd call 3,4,6 and fold 5.

Actually, I hope I've got these wrong because I've just finished fourth and been knocked out!!!!

AMP