How would you play this hand?

[Cityfan1893]

Right.

I was playing in a MTT, had quite a healty chip stack and was on the small blind.

Im dealt pocket jacks, which is a hand I hate and hardly ever play if it costs me any more than 1/4 of my stack. The guy under the gun raises 10x the big blind and everyone else before me raises. Im immediatly thinking oh shit, this is AA or AK, but the guy had been at it all night, fishing for straights and flushes and bluffing all over the place, so i Call (i think this was my first mistake, I did think raise, but all JJ needs is a Q, K or A on the flop and im fucked, and this guy might not be lying)

So flop comes down, just me and this guy left and its a rainbow flop, 2, 5, 10 and im thinking yes, little chance of a flush, any pair he has is lower than mine, Im raising him out of this. I raise 10x the minimum bet, expecting him to fold. He calls. Now im thinking he must have AA, KK or QQ, so aim to be a bit more cautious after the turn.

The turn comes down and its a 7 of spades. I only make the minimum bet as im scared he's holding AA, KK or QQ. Im thinking if he does have one of those, this is his chance to get rid of me by re-raising my bet and i fully expect it, but he calls the minimum bet.

By this point im confused to hell about what this guy is holding and have given up guessing, thinking he's just fishing for a flush or straight. Im just hoping for a Jack thats not a spade, so i know im winning and i can go all in and get rid of this idiot, but the river is an Ace of diamonds.

Now im shitting myself, surely this guy is beating me now? Theres no chance of the flush, a small chance of a A2345 straight, but surely he wouldn't be raising at the start 3 4, so i can safely rule that out. Im thinking what has he hit? Is that him trips Ace? Well he minimum bets, so im thinking he was just taking me on a ride and i go all in (im pretty much pot committed here, only the amount of the big blind left in my stack, so all in would've had to be my call no matter what he did) he calls and I've lost the pot. Then i see his hole cards and its A 3 unsuited. I shit you not!!! He raised 10 times the big blind under the gun with A 3!! He called a 10 times the big blind raise after the flop of 2,5,10 with A 3 unsuited

So how did i play this hand wrong? Should i have re-raised the original raise? Should I have betted stronger after the turn?

This is why i hate Pocket JJ and why i hate fish.

[kompressaur]

this sounds like my territory Cityfan, lets have a look :crack

How many people are at the table?

The guy under the gun raises 10x the big blind and everyone else before me raises

i premuse thats meant to read folds Cityfan? fcuk that would just be crazy. I think that this is too much of a common practise with people that 'want to change poker'. Late in big tournies they raise with anything UTG to make folks think that they are up against a really big hand. I presume this dude had a big stack and 10x the bb wasnt too much for him? I would have put him all in pre-flop. aye i wouldnt even want to see a flop with JJ. Folks are tending to call utg with AA and KK and hoping for a raiser to re-raise. I would have put him on a smaller pair 1010 and if he had AK you'd still be fav. A great time to double up as who cares about small prize money. the dude would have had a big stack as he would have been playing any 2 cards and raising folks out of pots at a scary time. Aye i would have went all-in quicker than a blink of an eye Cityfan but maybe someone could advise you more

[Cityfan1893]

Thanks Komp, aye it was supposed to be fold lol. It was just six at the table.

I guess your right, my problem with poker has always been im not aggressive enough and im def not aggressive enough with JJ, i hate it so much. I also hate going all in unless it's with AA. If im putting my tournament on the line pre-flop, i want it to be for the strongest starting hand. It's about time to rethink my strategy i think.
Last summer i was on a hotstreak with poker, was up £800 between the time the football season ended and the next one started, but i've not really had a decent win since

Just before I posted this reply, i was knocked out of a tournament where i was just 10 places before the bubble and I was AK vs 10 J and flop, turn and river was Q K 8 2 A. Ace on the river again screwing me over and to be honest, a stronger raise pre flop would have probably seen him fold

[kompressaur]

I dont know if i want to see any flops with JJ Cityfan unless maybe if there's been a biggish raise and then a few callers. I dont know if thats sound advice though. sometimes if im in the BB i dont mind seeing a flop and hoping for no Overcards. again that doesnt sound too wise to me poss. i forget what i do.

With the AK hand i would have raised 3 or 4 times the bb and then been all in on the flop i think. again i dont know if thats sound advice as ive never really given poker advice before. I play pretty agressive on the flop and make pot sized bets if i have flopped something or not. Sometimes i should learn to slow play things a bit and i even bet out with flopping a set (mostly) Depends on the fabric of the flop i suppose. if theres a straight or flush draw i make sure they aint getting the right odd to call. As the old adage goes i would rather win a small pot than lose a big one.

Maybe someone can help us both out here Cityfan. I strongly recommend reading as many books as you can to iron out any possible flaws in your game from the off.

I suppose the other 'rule' of poker is get your money all-in wuith the best hand. wit hte way you described that fella utg you would have thought that you would have the best hand. He only raised it so much as he didnt want callers. Re-raise him and put him in a spot. Im amazed at the amount of bluffing goes on in $5-$15 mtt's. Folks throwing in nothing. ive made some strage calls at times with 3rd pair etc and been wrong but ie certainly made more chips calling these fcukers.

I think i would have been al-in with AK too Cityfan. folks playing concervative pre-bubble. I dont mind just picking up the blinds and waiting another cycle or two of hands to throw in a big hand. I raise blinds with nothing and thats been my downfall lately. If anyone can tell me that late in a tournie and raising the blinds x3 is 1/3 of your stack should you maybe not bother? I find myself feeling i am pot commited with Q8 and the like too much. usually 2 live ones but still not a hand to go out a tournie with

[kompressaur]

With the AK hand i would have raised 3 or 4 times the bb and then been all in on the flop i think.

nah i would have checked the flop and been all in after the turn. no i wouldnt i would have put a pot sized bet in on the flop and then been all in on the turn

[Cityfan1893]

We are the complete opposite type of Poker player's komp. You seem to be aggressive while im tight passive. Q8 isn't even the type of hand i like to play late on in a tournament, the kicker usually has to be at least a 9 for me to use my chips.

I will sometimes make a big raise with JJ pre flop so i dont need to see the flop, but remember this guy had raised 10x big blind UTG, so i was scared i would've been re-raising into a QQ KK AA or KA.

Like you though, Im aggressive when there is potientally a flush or straight draw, I don't let people fish for these for cheap, but it is the only time im aggressive. I am one of the few poker players i know who doesn't like to go all in with anything other than AA pre flop or the strongest possible hand after flop. I dont know if i should change, become a bit more loose and aggressive, as this tight style has done me so well in the past. There are so many loose, aggressive players out there, that my style is a good way to combat them imo. Maybe i should play a couple of tournaments trying out a more aggressive style, playing cards i wouldn't usually play, raising more than i would usually raise.

I think if we were heads up in a poker game, you'd eat me alive!

[kompressaur]

Poker Office gives me a wee wizard symbol Cityfan as im tight/aggressive. I cant help it. If i just remember to only play BIG hands out of position i would do better. I bet into a caller on every street with 2nd pair and then i can even call him on the river thinking that the cnuts draw that never was is bust

I wouldnt play Q8 Cityfan but i would in late position to steal the blinds. blind stealing is earsier when everyone is waiting for premium hands. I even steal the blinds from 2 off the button.

the 10x raise by that fella says to me he didnt want called and i would put him on a right lowly pair. If he hadd AA or KK he would have made a smaller raise imo to try and get a caller or two. QQ was a big possibility but again without seeing the play of hi up till then its hard to say. I find folks that play a lot of pots seem to raise bigger with smaller hands and think that theyre being cute with smaller raises or calls with bigger hands. Its easy to see. As long as your stealing blinds with some real marginal hands Cityfan it will let you hae enough chips to play a normal non short stacked game and you can wait for bigger hands to play. Best of it is if youve got a tight image folks will respect your raises and not get involved. I try and steal the blinds later in a tournie at least once a round. It may be from the button to the next 2 seats. usually with hands that add up to 20 in blackjack or well anything realy. If im called ive usually still got 2 live cards and my raise will gve me the chance to lead out on the flop. Even better when you catch a crazy flop and you can win all of someones chips with your 2 pair.

Aye defo get more agressive when the blinds and nates are well up Cityfan. the higher they go the lower your starting hand reuirements should be. I play very tight i have to admit. I am usually the tighet person at my table barr any STONES that are there just waiting on AA. I like to change gears a bit as i was always quite wild in my play before i learnt how to be tight. Im known for re-raising folks with J10 and the lie just to mix u my play a bit. Fundementally though i just play top hands. AJ i fold in early position. Pairs 6-2 i bin. I find it easier to just not get involved.

Start trying to steal the blinds at least once every round Cityfan and see how you get on. As i say you'll have been sitting like a stone and they'll lay it down as they dont want to get involved. Make sure though the blinds aint really short stacked or really big stacked as they could both call you with weaker hands for 2 differant reasons

[kompressaur]

im shit at heads up Cityfan btw. Reason goes out the window with me and i start forgetting that there is cards involved. I just raise all the time, pound pound pound and i even call with anything as i dont believe anyone has anything

[kompressaur]

Dealer: foleyoni posts Small Blind 20
Dealer: thedailypuntcom posts Big Blind 40
Dealer: Dealing cards
Dealer: Your cards 9h 7h
Dealer: ballasteen folds
Dealer: gooseweb raises 120
Dealer: TurtlePower2 folds
Dealer: Player cervalon has joined the table
Dealer: Cokiee folds
Dealer: 1980brazzo1980 folds
Dealer: ditze folds
Dealer: heididekays calls 120
Dealer: foleyoni folds
Dealer: thedailypuntcom calls 80
Dealer: Dealing Flop
2c 3c Qs
Dealer: thedailypuntcom bets 200
Dealer: gooseweb calls 200
Dealer: heididekays folds
Dealer: Dealing Turn
2c 3c Qs 6s
Dealer: thedailypuntcom bets 360
Dealer: gooseweb calls 360
Dealer: Dealing River
2c 3c Qs 6s 2s
Dealer: thedailypuntcom goes All-in 695
Dealer: gooseweb calls 695
Dealer: gooseweb shows Two Pair
Qh Jh


there's me doing it again. why oh why have i started doing this. i should have FOLDED yes. Play big mony for big pots not small pots and off course PLAY IN POSITION KOMP i missed his raise btw with not concentrating. I thought 'he hasnt got a Q'

[Cityfan1893]

Im going to take on some of your tips for the rest of the week komp and see how i get on. Thesedays i seem to cast quite long in tournaments, but not long enough to get amoungst the paid places, so stealing blinds is something im going to have to add to my game, as i just simply keep running out of steam.

I dont think my tight style suits MTT's too much, but what i really enjoy and what really suits my style are 6 seated sit and goes. Sky Poker have one called scary, where you start with double the amount of chips (3000, usually 1500) and blinds go up every 3 minutes. My tight play works well here as the fast blinds seems to make everyone go crazy, going all in with rubbish hands etc, so it's easy to sit and pick them off with good hands. They pay 1st and 2nd place and i get paid about 70-80% in these type of games.

But in the MTT's, im def going to take in some of the stuff you've said about being more aggressive and stealing blinds and see how i get on.

[Cityfan1893]

Originally Posted by kompressaur

Dealer: foleyoni posts Small Blind 20
Dealer: thedailypuntcom posts Big Blind 40
Dealer: Dealing cards
Dealer: Your cards 9h 7h
Dealer: ballasteen folds
Dealer: gooseweb raises 120
Dealer: TurtlePower2 folds
Dealer: Player cervalon has joined the table
Dealer: Cokiee folds
Dealer: 1980brazzo1980 folds
Dealer: ditze folds
Dealer: heididekays calls 120
Dealer: foleyoni folds
Dealer: thedailypuntcom calls 80
Dealer: Dealing Flop
2c 3c Qs
Dealer: thedailypuntcom bets 200
Dealer: gooseweb calls 200
Dealer: heididekays folds
Dealer: Dealing Turn
2c 3c Qs 6s
Dealer: thedailypuntcom bets 360
Dealer: gooseweb calls 360
Dealer: Dealing River
2c 3c Qs 6s 2s
Dealer: thedailypuntcom goes All-in 695
Dealer: gooseweb calls 695
Dealer: gooseweb shows Two Pair
Qh Jh


there's me doing it again. why oh why have i started doing this. i should have FOLDED yes. Play big mony for big pots not small pots and off course PLAY IN POSITION KOMP i missed his raise btw with not concentrating. I thought 'he hasnt got a Q'

Ouch komp. Thats a hand i would never have ever been involved in, even with the blinds that low. The original raise of 120 would've seen me fold straight away.

[kompressaur]

tell me about it Cityfan i think i keep beliveing i can outplay people and thats a terrible thing. Who looks the fool? me thats right As long as i stop doing that playing out of position i will have learnt something. Only got a tenner left in my poker. well up but my original bankroll minus the £500 i won in tournies the last 10 days is near kaput. Ive been awfull since friday

[Scottieboy08]

OK, i'll deal with the original hand first. The call pre-flop with JJ is fine against an UTG raiser and i'd be slightly apprehensive about AA-QQ as well cityfan.

The flop is ok (although TT has now moved ahead of you), so all non-paired hands AK,AQ, maybe AJ suited have missed badly. In this situation without reads, I would check/call the flop and check/fold the turn as an unknown is unlikely to two barrel a non paint/A turn without having something.

As it turns out, you were unlucky and the fact the guy 'had been at it all night' does make it worse.

One last thing cityfan, PLEASE don't min-bet the turn, pet hate of mine Just check it mate.

[Yen_Sid]

Holding JJ like you were I too would've called his original bet (based on the info you have given). When the flop came down with high card 10 I would definitely have pushed all I had into the middle hoping he had AK, AQ, AJ or similar. Turns out he only had A3 (holeee fck!!) so I'm guessing he was dumb enough and would probably have called anyway. But at least I would've known that I was well ahead when the chips went in, so some consolation I suppose when he later spooked an A on the river.

[DAN DAN]

Cityfan, you sound like me in the later stages of tourneys. Right now I can get so far then bugger it all up on the final table or there abouts. I too struggle with blind stealing. Sometimes I know exactly when I should be doing it but chicken out. I'm sure it will get better in time.

I used to never go all-in either like you, but you quickly learn that it is a powerful tool and often it's better to bust out earlier than spend hours to eventually go out before the money anyway.

Get brave is what I say.