JJ - Bit Lost On Correct Play???

[Scottieboy08]

Villain is as close to an OK Loose-Aggressive player (Tracker stats 38/15/7) as you can get at this level. I am Tight-Aggressive and have won a few decent sized pots off him already tonight.

My question arises mostly around the turn bet (and resulting call). Good/bad?? If its bad, what should I be doing on the turn against this guy?

Comments on the flop appreciated as well

Texas Holdem NL $0.50/$1 - 2007-07-18 21:15:29 Server
Table Amsterdam
Seat 1: Ray80 ( $106.35 )
Seat 2: MONTEZ ( $51.05 )
Seat 4: McGinley50 ( $38.86 )
Seat 6: drumm22 ( $27.95 )
Seat 7: flashdawg ( $81.75 )
Seat 9: grammer ( $46.45 )
Seat 10: elite08 ( $154 )

flashdawg posts Small Blind $0.50
grammer posts Big Blind $1

Dealing cards

Your cards Js Jc [elite08]

elite08 raises $4
Ray80 folds
MONTEZ folds
McGinley50 folds
drumm22 folds
flashdawg raises $9.50
grammer folds
elite08 calls $6

Dealing Flop 8s 3c 2c

flashdawg bets $8
elite08 calls $8

Dealing Turn 8s 3c 2c 2h

flashdawg checks
elite08 bets $27
flashdawg goes All-in $63.75
elite08 calls $36.75

[Doc]

Its a tough one. The problem with raising Jacks pre-flop in NL is that can encounter exactly the situation you did - a big pot and no real idea where you are.
Particularly in early position, your raise says either pair or big cards (e.g. AK)

The alternative, which I increasingly favour from early and middle positions, is to play your Jacks like a smaller pair and limp.

As for this specific hand, you need to ask when he re-raises what kind of flop you're looking for if you're going to call the raise. You've got position though, which is a big positive.

Even a loose aggressive player you have to put on some sort of a hand here pre-flop, most probably with two big cards, if not a big pair. AK (and AQ if he is as loose as you suggest) are real possibilities here, and on card frequency you have to favour those over the hands you really don't want to see - i.e. AA, KK and QQ (32 ways to have AK or AQ, and 18 to have QQ+). JJ, TT and 99 might well fit the Villains MO here too I guess.

So, pre-flop I like, but I return to the point of what flop I want. A jack is idea, but other than that, undercards.
I definitely raise him on this flop. $8 into a $20 pot isn't very big and there is a flush draw out there. I'd be raising here to $30 or so. If he plays back at you, you have a tough decision and a probable fold.
By calling you're giving him a free card (Effectively), and also leaving him in the dark about your holding, as well as you being in the dark about his. Is he slow-playing and building a pot, or is he weak?

However, the turn card is great for you - that 2 hasn't helped him unless he is a total maniac. Your bet is fine and I think you have to call his raise - you're getting 4-1 and he could be on AcKc, TT, JJ, 99 often enough to warrant playing IMO

[Scottieboy08]

Originally Posted by DoctorOfDanger

So, pre-flop I like, but I return to the point of what flop I want. A jack is idea, but other than that, undercards.
I definitely raise him on this flop. $8 into a $20 pot isn't very big and there is a flush draw out there. I'd be raising here to $30 or so. If he plays back at you, you have a tough decision and a probable fold.
By calling you're giving him a free card (Effectively), and also leaving him in the dark about your holding, as well as you being in the dark about his. Is he slow-playing and building a pot, or is he weak?

However, the turn card is great for you - that 2 hasn't helped him unless he is a total maniac. Your bet is fine and I think you have to call his raise - you're getting 4-1 and he could be on AcKc, TT, JJ, 99 often enough to warrant playing

Good post Doc, should have raised the flop here. My initial plan whilst playing the flop was to call and get it in on a safe turn and like you said, the turn 2 couldn't have been better. However, I let draws in obviously. Two questions I've also been thinking about now:

1. Does anyone else limp JJ UTG 8 handed?

2. As played, does anyone favour a check behind on the turn and turn my JJ into a bluff catcher (for pot control)?

[Jezza]

This is tough scottie.

I think preflop is ok (I do limp quite lot UTG here tho, I tend to raise with JJ/TT etc more preflop when I have the button. A set of jacks is such an awesome cash game that (that noone will put you on if you have limped) that I do limp them a fair amount.

On the flop I think you have to call as well. If this pot was multiway, say 4 people then I would probably fold. If he has RR preflop with AK and has the guts to cbet into 4 people then fair play but more often than not it will be QQ+ if that is the case. Being HU I think you have to at least call the flop. Raising the flop and folding to an all in is another possibility but seeing as you have position I like a flat call.

I would just check the turn behind tho and decide on the river. A good player here would use this line a LOT with QQ+. If you bet the turn then you have to be prepared to call the all in, which you did (betting and folding would be the worst, if you are going to bet big like you did then you should really call the all in). Personally I check behind and let him think I have the club draw.

[Scottieboy08]

Thanks all. Knew I should have checked behind the turn. Well, a 3rd spade came on the river, but it didn't change anything.

KK good

[wazik]

I know its cheating as I have seen the answer now but this is a really tough spot. I defintley check the turn, I want to get to a showdown here but only if I can do it as cheaply as possible. Kinda hand I end up winning and I have played it badly by checking but it so hard to know where you are with this one.

[kompressaur]

Great advice Doc and Jezza. I like them both and i have to admit at the mo i would probably jave rasied as Doc said but now i'm starting to like Jezza's more subtle approach to the situation. I screwed up with this pair of nines didnt i?

- mvtool sitting in seat 1 with $3682.50
- primeAA sitting in seat 2 with $2387.50 [Sitting out]
- pstn sitting in seat 3 with $3785.00 [Sitting out]
- foxy-lady-4u sitting in seat 4 with $3896.25 [Dealer]
- llorenz sitting in seat 5 with $2112.50
- MakoMan2007 sitting in seat 6 with $1475.00
- Kwijebo sitting in seat 7 with $2455.00 [Sitting out]
- kompressaur sitting in seat 8 with $4522.50
- OCONNOR444 sitting in seat 9 with $2535.00
- colombine2a sitting in seat 10 with $625.00

llorenz posted the small blind - $50.00
MakoMan2007 posted the big blind - $100.00

** Dealing card to kompressaur: 9 of Diamonds, 9 of Hearts
Kwijebo folded
primeAA was disconnected
kompressaur called - $100.00
OCONNOR444 folded
colombine2a folded
mvtool raised - $800.00
primeAA folded
pstn folded
foxy-lady-4u folded
llorenz folded
MakoMan2007 folded
kompressaur called - $800.00

** Dealing the flop: 6 of Diamonds, Queen of Clubs, 6 of Clubs
kompressaur bet - $875.00
mvtool raised - $1750.00
kompressaur called - $1750.00

** Dealing the turn: Ace of Diamonds
kompressaur checked
mvtool went all-in - $1132.50
kompressaur folded
mvtool mucks:
mvtool wins $6382.50 from the main pot

[kompressaur]

i still cant play nines

ez-go-in posted the small blind - $20.00
Zell222 posted the big blind - $40.00

** Dealing card to kompressaur: 9 of Diamonds, 9 of Spades
goalkeeper22 folded
kompressaur called - $40.00
bottlebeer called - $40.00
mick82 called - $40.00
chikky called - $40.00
ez-go-in called - $40.00
Zell222 checked

** Dealing the flop: 7 of Diamonds, Jack of Clubs, 7 of Clubs
ez-go-in checked
Zell222 checked
kompressaur bet - $40.00
bottlebeer called - $40.00
mick82 folded
chikky called - $40.00
ez-go-in folded
Zell222 raised - $440.00
kompressaur folded
bottlebeer folded
chikky folded
Zell222 mucks:
Zell222 wins $800.00 from the main pot

[kompressaur]

and this is just a silly way to play 9's wasnt it?

sincerely posted the small blind - $10.00
priyesh999 posted the big blind - $20.00

** Dealing card to kompressaur: 9 of Clubs, 9 of Spades
MarkKicker folded
DrUce raised - $120.00
kompressaur called - $120.00
jagbuffy folded
JimJiminy folded
konkylien folded
StChristo folded
sincerely folded
priyesh999 called - $120.00

** Dealing the flop: 8 of Spades, Jack of Spades, 10 of Diamonds
priyesh999 checked
DrUce went all-in - $1000.00
kompressaur went all-in - $760.00
priyesh999 called - $1000.00
DrUce shows: Ace of Clubs, Ace of Spades
priyesh999 shows: 10 of Spades, Queen of Spades

** Dealing the turn: 6 of Spades

** Dealing the river: Jack of Hearts
priyesh999 wins $2650.00 from the main pot
priyesh999 wins $3130.00 from side pot 1

[Beanie]

Hand 1 - in a tourney, at some point in this hand(and the earlier the better) you need to decide whether you're happy to play them as a small pocket pair(get in cheaply, try and hit, if not get out ASAP) or make a stand with them against a raiser. In the end you seem to get stuck in the middle...preflop call isn't the worst, but once you are reraised on the flop it's time to bin them.

Hand 2 - no probs - saw the flop cheaply, missed, got out cheaply.

Hand 3 - Fairly standard way to play them I think - in a 3 way pot like that you are getting decent odds for your straight draw, so the all in is fair enough.

[kompressaur]

Hand 1 i suppose that dude aint doing that crazy call for nothing is he Beanie? Would you have tried the $875 bet Beanie or do you think you would have just folded there and then?

I'm glad it seems like just the cards never fell too right on the other two. I'm away to post a biiiiiiiiiiig pot vid