ACE-KING (The death of many a poker player)

[Jezza]

AK is possibly the most troublesome hand in NL hold em, ranking alongside JJ in the difficulty it poses in a lot of situations. Indeed the hand which causes the most exits from NL hold em tournaments is AK. I was talking about this hand with muse earlier on msn and thought I would post a thread up on it... My take is like this..

How I play it depends ENTIRELY on the sort of game I am in, in a cash game or a tournament and indeed if the tournaments blinds are at the low middle or large stage. In a cash game on the internet I will seldom raise preflop with it in a full ring game on the net for a lot of reasons. What you basically have is a drawing hand and if you raise upfront with it and called a few times, what are you going to do if you miss the flop? Believe me on the internet if you choose to play aggressively and bet hard at a baby flop after raising in early pos with AK you will most likely be called (and be behind) by someone who has a pocket pair or a small piece of the board - and then you have invested even more money in a pot you are not likely to win at that point. I like to limp with this hand in cash games and give my opponents no idea of the strength of my hand - letting them all limp in with their AJ and K10 type hands which you will make a mint off time and time again on the Axx and Kxx flops you connect with (when you get these flops just play your hand hard and you will find yourself paid off nicely most of the time). By limping when the flop comes pish pish pish you can just muck your hand and noone is any the wiser with you having invested the minimum. If you want to raise with AK, which can be a profitable raise, then I would say the best place to try it is the button or when you are fairly sure you will "become" the button by raising. In this way if you miss the flop and are checked to you can take the free card off and possibly hit an A or K on the turn. If I raise with AK and only get ONE caller I will probably bet the flop regardless of what comes, especially if the player is weak tight - I will never bluff multiple opponents. Remember and exercise some caution at flops where you have top pair but it is highly possible someone has two pair IE AJx or KQx and you will find AK is highly profitable in cash games. Shorthand the play changes somewhat. If I am going to play AK in a shorthanded game it is almost always for a raise preflop, but the thing to note here is if I am going to play a shorthanded pot at all I generally find it better to come in for a raise rather than a limp. This way your hand is as disguised as when you limp with it in a full ring. Play on the flop and beyond shorthanded/HU is a lot trickier than full ring and it would be hard to to go indepth with it here, I will try in another thread later on. However the same thoughts should be running through your mind as I mentioned earlier.

Tournament play I play it a lot differently, especially when the blinds become big (It's a great reraising hand but a poor calling one!) but I will discuss that later

Loads of people disagree with me and raise everytime they get AK in a full ring cash game regardless of position and opponents, what are everyone elses opinions?

Jez

[mrmuzeman]

Nice advice mate Heres a post I made before one time on AK...

When you raise pre flop with AK and you and only get 1 or 2 callers you should almost always follow it up with a near pot size bet even under the gun unless the board looks scary imo. If you get called then your through of course but often youll win the hand right there. Throw it away if you get raised and hit nothing. Check whenever you dont hit AK I know what youll have everytime and Ill bet with nothing and take the pot away from you.

Bare in mind by playing this way and betting out whenever you raised pre flop, no one will ever know what you have or a clue whether youve hit anything and its always good to keep your opponents guessing.

Quote:
IMO letting this hand go is one of the hardest but most essential things for any player to be able to do.

I hear what is said and its important to be able to lay down a good but beatable hand but AK IS a drawing hand so you will have to hit with it to win in a showdown. Its extremely easy to get away from imo, if I hit I bet. If I dont hit and I raised pre flop Ill bet. If I get called here ill check it down if poss. If I get raised ill fold. AA or KK is what I would describe as a hand thats hard to let go of. Its probably for this reason AK is maybe even better than AA cos youll lose less with it and win just as much in a big pot by an ace with a weaker kicker.

Also pre flop - in general raising with AK is a sound play. Often I will raise with it in late position or on the button to cut out the field and I have position to make a bet and take the pot when everyone probably checks to me after the flop.

But in early position I often just call with it tbh. This way im not forced into following up my pre flop raise with another bet after the flop. I say this because ill be out of position when I make this bet and if I get called I wont know where I stand even if I hit with it. Also youll have a weak ace come in somewhere with you and cos you never raised preflop they might think their kicker is good (say AJ) when an ace comes on the flop. Cos they think you would have raised with AK right? Wrong!

Quote:
Say im holding AK (off) which i raise substantially pre-flop with

What dyou mean by substantial? I wouldnt suggest raising substantially unless the game is very loose or somebody already raised. 4xbigblind is usually sufficient as a normal bring in. I also just like calling with AK to raises.

Bare in mind also im primarily a cash game player so the things I say apply to that more although of course theres a fair bit of crossover between cash and tournament play. I would get busy with AK more in a tournament id say in general, its a good hand all in ina tournament as youll hardly ever be in a bad spot with it. Also remember AKs can always be played slightly stronger than AKo

[Doc]

A lot depends on the type of game it is. The nightmare is to be out of position against multiple players with a hand like this when you don't hit the flop. If I think I can keep it down to one (or two max) opponents after me I'll raise big enough to do this, otherwise I'll sometimes raise smaller to get junk hands out - I don't want to lose out to some muppet who had a look with 63s and made two pair. I'm looking to drive out smaller cards, so if I do get a baby flop I can bet at it. If I am middle to late position I'll try to buy the button.

Overall it is a hand I want to win with pre-flop, and position is a big help in that. I'm more likely to limp with AKs than AKo. I won't call a chunky raise with AK unless I have other factors in my favour (big stack, poor opponent, position, relative position etc)

[GETT1NLOTS]

I'm not saying it because it's you Jezza but I agree with everything you've just posted there.

When I first started playing poker I raised all the time with this hand pre flop unless a decent raise had been made already in which case I just called. Nowadays I am a lot more cautious pre flop which gives all of the advantages you describe plus it disguises your pocket cards effectively too. Say the flop comes Ah 8h 4s. I would raise here with Ac Kd in order to protect myself against the flush draw. However due to simply calling pre flop I might get a caller or two who don't put me on the top pair - their thinking being 'if he had an ace he would have raised pre flop' (as this is what a lot of new players do.) They might put me on a flush draw or a straight draw. Of course you might be called here by someone who is on a flush draw themselves and then you could get burnt but as long as you make your raise when you are ahead and big enough so that flush and straight drawers don't have the correct pot odds then you can't do any more.

Anyway I digress. Yes Jezza I tend to flat call with AK pre flop nowadays on cash games.

A question in return though.

What would you do if you flat called with AK pre flop and then an all in raise (say 30 x the BB) came in afterwards from a tight player? Assuming you are playing against decent players you might put the opponent on AA here? Can you lay those AK hands down in this situation?

[aliensyndm]

Ace king seems better than it actually is. It is a drawing hand, if it misses it's not much good, especially when there are a few people in the pot which means it's very likely someone has connected with something.
How often would people raise with a hand like 7-8 suited ? Heads up 7-8 suited isn't that much worse that AK offsuit, it's 58.1%-41.9%
I think people forget this and over-rate AK and think, woo hoo AK, RAISE !

[mrmuzeman]

Yeah you certainly can lay them down Gett1n I would say although it depends how deep they are of course. If they had a deep stack I wouldnt bother cos even if you make an ok call you might be in a race situation against JJ QQ etc or even lower pair. You dont play cash games to do pre-flop races, thats tournament play.

So what size raise would I call an all in with? Hmm if they had 10bb I certainly would. 20? Yeah I think id go for it there too. But any more than and itd be a bit dodgy imo and no way if they had a deep stack of 50bb or more.

[Jezza]

I agree entirely with muse here on gett1ns comment. I think from an unknown I would probably call if they had 20bb or less (cos I like to GAMMMMMMMBBOLLLLLLL lol and its probably a race) but any deeper than that and it would take some serious previous history (of being a fud) by them to get me to call - 99% of the time that would be an auto fold.

Jez

[aliensyndm]

Oh this is quite ironic, whilst writing this reply I pick up AK off in the freeroll.
I have already decided Im gonna try and double up using this. Some numpty goes all in before me with blinds at 10/20
Normally I would never call but this is a numpty freeroll and AQ etc is quite possible. I call and he has 77. I flop a flush draw and a high board pair hence a huge draw but alas the 77 holds out.
Got about 70 chips now so stick them all in and win a 3 way pot. Just over 200 so I stick those chips in and win a 4 way pot, back up to 1100 !
So I then pick up AA with the the blinds still at 10/20. I figure I've been going all in so much I have a decent chance of a call if I just go all in, so I whack my 1100 in with my AA and indeed I get a call for my whole stack almost.
Of course the guy flips AK suited, an ace flops giving me trips, problem is he also flopped a flush draw and indeed rivers the flush without the board pairing and I'm out the freeroll, gotta love AK eh ? Thing is there are not many better hands for your opponent to have when you have AA ! The suited helps by about 5% though. So I flop a flush draw and and 3 overcards with AK against 77 and lose and then AK beats my AA, scew AK for a game of soliders !

[mrmuzeman]

And there was I thinking you were writing a sweet reply on the merits of AK Alien

Aliens first example though is exactly relevant to our AK all in in a cash game question though. He lost against a medium pair in 77, your probly about a 45% underdog here, although its more or less coinflip. But NOT a good thing to be doing in cash games, you want a nice advantange before commiting all in in a cash game for sure.

In a cash game if someones all in they are very likely to have a pair of which two - AA and KK you are fcuked (value wise) and all other pairs slight underdog. If they dont have a pair your loving it but they could very well have AK as well in which case youre getting a lovely rake on your whole stack anything else your well infront though and probly dominating with a better ace.

Still though for every time youre dominating, you will come up against AA or KK probably, so muck them AK if faced with an all in of decent proportions

[Doc]

well I see it like this.

You have hands that play well versus multiple players and hands that play well versus small numbers of players. The hands that do well against multiple players are hands like the small pairs and suited connectors or Ace-suited. When you make a flush or a set you get paid off for all the times you have to fold on the flop. With other hands, the more people who see the flop the worse off you are in general, as you are typically looking to make (or leverage your pocket) pairs. Some hands like Ace-big suited combine both aspects so you can vary the play depending on other condititions.

However, limping into a multiway pot with AK isn't too clever IMO - Say the flop come K63 rainbow. Yippee you think. Well you could easily be behind to the guy who played K6s, or 63s due to the large number of callers. When you limp you are providing odds for hands like those to limp also - I want to get them out pre-flop or at least make them pay (incorrectly) to stay in.

The figures alien quotes are for heads-up. But by raising AK pre-flop you can force out a lot of hands like small pairs that have you beaten, and also reduce the numbers seeing the flop - who collectively could draw out on you. AK against 5 random hands is 28-14 against any individual one, but 28-72 behind overall. You may even get 'weak calls' before you to fold to your raise and get some dead money in the pot.

I understand what Jez is saying, but I think the answer is a bigger raise pre-flop! The occasional call to mix it up is okay, esp from early position, but overall I think you have to raise a hand like this. As Mr. Muze has in his post, I'll look to check it down if I get my flop bet called and I haven't improved. Bear in mind however, that nearly 1 in 4 times where there isn't an ace or king on the flop you'll get one on the turn or the river!

As for the question of the big (re-)raise - I'd let it go very quickly unless I was quite short-stacked in a tourney or I knew the other player to be insane! You are behind to any pair (almost - AKs is a marginal favourite over 22) AND out of position. You'll get better spots to make your money.

[GETT1NLOTS]

However, limping into a multiway pot with AK isn't too clever IMO - Say the flop come K63 rainbow. Yippee you think. Well you could easily be behind to the guy who played K6s, or 63s due to the large number of callers. When you limp you are providing odds for hands like those to limp also - I want to get them out pre-flop or at least make them pay (incorrectly) to stay in.

Doc, they shouldn't be even CALLING pre flop with K,6 or 6,3 in my opinion. I ditch starting hands like this and take another sip of my wine. If you're playing people who flat call with these starting hands then I would probably raise with AK too. But I haven't played cash games where these hands are even flat called pre flop for ages.

[aliensyndm]

Yeah I already know all that which I assume you knew I knew anyway.
As I said,

Normally I would never call but this is a numpty freeroll and AQ etc is quite possible.

Plus I'm not sitting around for 3 hours trying to win $1.50 you know


I think raising with AK in early position in a full ring game is certainly dodgy, I don't like doing it. Man something weird is going on here, I.m playing a full ring game as I type this and I keep getting AK. I was getting it in the free roll as I was typing and now I'm getting it in the full ring. Hmm I think I'll go start a thread on pocket aces and see what happens

[mrmuzeman]

Legit points Doc as I know many do raise often with it. Doyle Brunson always raises with it for example and he aint done too bad eh?!

However in poker you take risks its the nature of the game. Yeah they might flop 2 pair with K6 or woteva but theyll probly let you know about it by how much they bet and raise you. Its all about judging if your hands good whish is what poker ia ll about.

Yeah you should be folding hands like that Gett1n as you say but its important to remember that many dont.

[mrmuzeman]

Alien. The other day I said out loud im gona get pocket Aces and then I did, it was well sweet

Plus I'm not sitting around for 3 hours trying to win $1.50 you know

Yeah I know you know all about it Alien I was commenting for the thread in general

[GETT1NLOTS]

Originally Posted by GETT1NLOTS

Doc, they shouldn't be even CALLING pre flop with K,6 or 6,3 in my opinion. I ditch starting hands like this and take another sip of my wine. If you're playing people who flat call with these starting hands then I would probably raise with AK too. But I haven't played cash games where these hands are even flat called pre flop for ages.

I'll just add to the above.

Unless they are on the BB and the whole table has folded or flat called I suppose. Like I say though. I would raise with AK if I was on a table full of people that flat call with any old shit. But other than that I would flat call with AK in a cash game and see the flop.