Flopped bottom set on suited board. Do you push?

[Jezza]

Raisin sort out your tilting ffs!

Preflop I think is fine, no need to talk about that.

The flop is good for you of course. With the bet out of the big blind and the flat call my initial assumption would be the BB has top pair and the flat caller utg has either the lone A hearts or the nut flush. If he has a set it would have to be QQ or TT. I dont think this is very likely for a couple of reasons 1) He would probably raise with these hands preflop (ok he was UTG so he might not have, but he PROBABLY would have) and 2) Even if he did limp preflop with this I am sure he raises on the flop here with a set. So I think he has the nut flush draw or possibly if he was slowplaying it would be the nut flush (I think he raises a non nut flush here due to the possibility of a 4th heart falling on the turn - a card he doesnt want to let come off for free). I would pretty much think I had the best hand at the moment raisin and go ahead and raise like you did.

lol WTF at what happens next (at least I would say this to myself if I had played this hand ). Jossi comes back with another raise and then jochen another?. Wow I guess I would have been wrong with my initial reads. Jossi must have a strong hand here to do this. I would think either a non nut flush (this hand would have bet the flop like he did originally probably) either that or at least top two pair. When jochen comes back again over the top I can only assume he was slowplaying the nuts on the flop. If he just had the lone A hearts in his hand then yes he might want to gamble to win a big pot but wouldnt he just call to drag you in and give himself better odds than raise again which means its more likely you fold? You now certainly dont have the best hand at the moment. At least one of them clearly has a flush, it doesnt take a world class player to figure this out now but is it worth your while drawing to a FH?. It is unlikely either of them have a set I think for the reasons stated before. However it is perfectly possible jossi1 has two pair I think. It COULD be flush over flush with jochen having the nuts and jossi the lower flush but I think given the flop betting 2 pair for jossi is a big part of his possible range as well. This kills your outs. Your clearly drawing and although on the face of it drawing to a FH would be +EV it certainly is not if jossi holds QT. Even if he holds another two pair then he is killing your outs and makes a call a long term loser. I would probably have folded on the flop losing the 48 I put in fearing jossi1s hand was killing mine. Id have called with QQ here if the odds were good.

Jez.

PS. Just looked at the results. I got the hands wrong, jochen did have the Ahearts but he did not flop the nuts and jossi actually had the flush. As it turns out you had the correct odds to gamble and nice to see you scoop a good pot for 2/4 raisin. I still think jossi turns up with two pair often enough here to kill your hand tho..

[Doc]

I'm interested that you'd raise the flop Jez. If you flat call, your hand is very well disguised. The value of everyones hand will change drastically on the turn and you'll have position in a bigger pot where the others are less likely to fold.

If a heart falls then you can get out unless the betting is very weak.

If a non-heart falls then you can get your chips in if the others play weakly (e.g. if they were betting with a single heart and now fear you have the made flush or even the nuts). If someone is still hanging round with two pair, they'll surely fold. A higher set is very unlikely I agree, but you may (if the player is very weak tight) get them to fold it (slim chance, but not nil) and even if they don't you're not much worse off than if you'd moved at the flop.

[Jezza]

I know what you mean Doc. A flat call on the flop is not bad at all (it does give a cheap card away to the lone A hearts but it does also stop you being reraised when your behind). When I said id raise I was just being honest about how I would play it. Given my read at that stage in the hand (Against top pair/lone A hearts) I figured I was probably best so I would go ahead and raise it. I am an aggressive player and yes this can be spewy at times in situations like this but I felt it was the right move given my read at that stage in the hand. Also against observant opponents (which you get more and more the higher stakes you play) they will note I dont always have a flush when I raise this flop. Thus my hand is a bit unclear to them if they have a small flush (otherwise they could play 100% perfectly against me). I would raise this flop with a wide range from AQ with the Ahearts a set to a flush to just the lone A hearts even on occasion.

Jez

[Doc]

different styles I guess.

The aggressive approach gets more money in the pot early and may fold some one card flush draws.

Would you intend to check the turn if you can, or would you fire again there?

If the pot was raised pre-flop I'd be more disposed to your approach. I'd just be too worried here against two players that I'm up against a made flush or that someone draws out on me, so I prefer to take the turn card cheaply

[raisin man]

Thanks for rhe comments. 9 tmes out of ten I wouldn't have pushed there.