Professional Gambling...

[Beanie]

Anyone ever thought about or taken up sports gambling as a full-time job?

Just interested

[zonker84]

Yes, I've been doing it for the past 2 years

[Beanie]

How do you find it then Zonks? How different is it(strategy wise etc) to casual gambling? More/less stressful than any crappy office job? Dare I say, enjoyable? Fulfilling? Tough on a private life, or not much different?

[zonker84]

I don't know if it's different stategy-wise. I've always taken it pretty seriously. Although when I first started betting about 12 years ago, the internet was nothing really, and you had to bet minimum 5-folds if you included a home. There was also a 10% betting tax It's much easier now.

I've never had a crappy office job, so wouldn't know if it's any different The only "proper" jobs I've had have been in the USA, and weren't crappy office ones.

Enjoyable if you win, and quite satisfying. Gives me a lot of freedom. Private life is good because I can do what I like when I like.

Only restrictive bit is running two gambling websites, which means there are certain things I have to do at certain times

[Beanie]

Cheers...interesting stuff.

Meet the 9-5 gamblers
By Denise Winterman
BBC News Magazine



Forget those ideas about card sharps and hustlers, a new breed of white-collar gambler is using statistics and the power of the internet to turn a profit. Welcome to gambling as a career option.

Despite the stereotypes of smoke-filled betting shops and glitzy Mayfair casinos, gambling is not what it once was.

The abolition of betting tax for punters in 2001 and the growth of internet gambling have revolutionised the industry and opened the door to a new breed of gambler, who is choosing it as a career.

Matthew Benham, managing director of Smartodds, had placed just a handful of bets in his life before he became a professional gambler last year. He was a City trader for eight years before setting up his company, which bets exclusively on football.

Suspicion

The 36-year-old employs 13 full-time staff, mainly made up of mathematicians and statisticians. He also has 25 part-time employees around the world who collate data on their country's league. Once the analysis is done, he and just one other colleague decide what bets to place.

"After leaving my job I was looking for something new," he says. "I have always been into football and I noticed betting on games was really taking off. A lot of what I did in the City feeds into what I do now. I use the spreadsheets and financial models I did as a trader to assess odds.

Until recently winning didn't always convert into high returns because the taxman and bookmaker took a cut

Dr David Forrest

"Five years ago professional gambling was hard work, but times have changed. With the internet it is much easier, from getting all the data to analyse a bet to placing it.

"I know more and more people who are taking it up full time and it is becoming a legitimate career choice. Some people are still suspicious of what I do and expect me to carry round suitcases full of cash."

Benham says it is his unemotional attitude towards gambling that makes him successful - he makes a profit, although declines to say how much.

"I never bet for fun, it is purely a job," he says. "You have to be unemotional because if you do it for the thrill you might not make sensible decisions."

There are no figures for how many people gamble professionally, but the money staked in all gambling style activities rose to £63.8bn in 2002-03, according to the government.

Dangerous passion

Politics graduate Paul Motty, 32, worked in the betting industry after school but left in 1997 to go to university because there were few prospects and full-time punting was too difficult. But after the explosion of internet betting sites he became a full-time gambler last year.

"The internet has changed the whole industry," he says. "The key to being a good gambler is research. It used to take days hunched over the papers to research a bet, now it takes minutes.

"Gambling is losing its seedy image. It is a massive global industry and doing it professionally is now a viable career. Effectively, it is just stock broking."

Taking a punt
£50 - What six out of 10 Britons spend a month on gambling
£20 - Average spend per customer at bingo on one night
£2.49 - What average household spends on Saturday's Lotto draw

He knows more and more people who are taking it up professionally and they are mainly young.

"Younger people are computer literate and use internet sites. For us gambling doesn't have the same stigma, it is a job and we set ourselves strict limits," he says.

Experts agree changes in the industry have made it more feasible to turn a punt into profit - but say it is not an easy way to make money.

"There has always been scope for smart people, with sufficient time to invest, to make it a full-time job of gambling," said Dr David Forrest, reader in economics at the Centre for Gambling at the University of Salford.

"But until recently winning didn't always convert into high returns because the taxman and bookmaker took a cut. Now it is more feasible that your time will deliver a positive financial outcome."

The university runs a degree in business and gambling studies and for the first time last year a student left to become a professional gambler after graduating.

Dedication

"You have to be very dedicated - it is not an easy job," says Dr Forrest. "That's the mistake some people make."

Gordon House knows just how many people can't cope. The UK's only charity offering residential treatment programmes for gambling addicts, it has seen a huge increase in inquiries in recent years and places are massively oversubscribed.

Managing director Faith Freestone says there is a potential risk for anyone who gambles. "Professional gamblers talk about being in control but the problems start when gambling controls you," she says.

Despite his success Motty says he would not advise anyone to take it up.

"You have to take the emotion and passion out of it to be a good gambler and a lot of people just aren't able to do that."

I'ts something I eventually want to do, but not for a long while yet. Of course the key word more than ever is discipline, and once that's sorted the whole gambling game isn't that tricky at all.

[zonker84]

Those guys in the interview sound a lot like me.

As for the stigma, well my mother does not tell people who I do, she is ashamed People must think I'm some layabout loser, but then they must wonder where the cars and foreign holidays come from. Probably think I'm a drug dealer

To be fair though, I didn't just jump into this. I did a Masters degree in maths first, and bet all the way through that, making pretty good profits. All the people on my course got into betting because of me Seriously though, it set me up, because I could use the profits I had to get started. I turned down a job in investment banking in London when I finished Uni to do this, as I didn't fancy the 60+ hours of work per week. This gives me a lot more freedom.

If you're interested in hearing more Beanie, I did an interview with DoctorOfDanger about this over at Punters Paradise in their newsletter:

http://www.punters-paradise.com/news...er3/zonker.php
http://www.punters-paradise.com/news...4/zonker-2.php
http://www.punters-paradise.com/news...5/zonker-3.php
http://www.punters-paradise.com/news...r6/zonker4.php


Before you ask, it was his idea not mine

[Beanie]

Christ thats long...you can't half drone on. I'll have a proper browse through tomorrow.

My maw found out that I gamble a few weeks back. I'd not purposly kept it secret or anything, but also not taken the time to mention it Anyway, she just kept coming up with the 'It's a mug's game' phrase in reply to absolutely everything I said, and as she's fairly religious, I reckon its something we will have to disagree on. But yeah, if I ever did it seriously I don't think it would be up for discussion at her coffee mornings.

Im thinking I'll probably head to Actuarial college after Uni to train to be an actuary(and with all the risk assesment its simply another form of gambling ) to a) build up some capital, and b) to have another career to fall back on should I ever decide to take gambling up full time.

Anyway, thats enough rambling for now.

[zonker84]

A lot of people don't understand how gambling works. You tell people you're a professional gambler, and they have visions of unemployed men in smoke-filled betting shops tossing all their money away on the horses.

I don't care a bit what people think of me (as you might have guessed ), but I find myself telling people I'm a web developer now, rather than a professional gambler. I used to tell people I'm a professional gambler all the time, but the funny looks and weird comments just aren't worth the hassle.

My girlfriend just got herself a flat and she wanted to put me down as guarantor, but then I saw the form I had to fill in and laughed. If I'd told the truth, it would've went straight in the bin, so she had to get her sister to do it instead.

As was mentioned in that article you posted Beanie, gambling is becoming more acceptable among younger people. Most people I know are under 30, and they're well impressed with what I get up to. People I don't know, people over 40 (especially women), just look at you like you're scum if you tell them you're a professional gambler. Most of it is through ignorance, but at the end of the day, that's their problem, I don't care.

For example, the investment banking job I turned down. I would've spent my days basically looking for good investment oppotunities. It's not a lot different to what I'm doing now. Food for thought anyway Beanie, I hope this helped.

If you want to ask anything else (doubt you do ) , feel free

[aliensyndm]

Ask your mother if you were to flip a coin and offer someone 11/10 on guessing the heads or tails whether that would be a mugs game too ?
Thing is some people are just set in their opinion and will not change it no matter what. What does religion have to do with it btw ?
I would consider myself religious but that does not alter mathematics in any way whatsoever ! In the same way that roulette is a losing game as there is a mathematical edge which is impossible to eliminate (unless you cheat) you can also consisently win if you know how to turn maths to your advantage.
Is trading in stocks and shares a mugs game too ? Are all these wall street boys and the like all mugs ? They're doing the same thing as us essentially, just our stocks and commodities are sporting events. They are taking calculated risks, as are we. If I were to stick a pin in a paper to select which shares I was to buy how would you rate my chances of making a profit on them ? Same thing with betting really. Alot of similarities just that traditionally one was "respectable" and one wasn't. Times are changing now and gambling has become huge. What was once swept under the carpet everyone is gunning for a piece of the action. People are also beginning to accept there IS a skill to it, it IS possible to make cash consistently, if you know what you are doing.

Having said all that some people will just not change their mind, to those people you just have to accept that for them ignorance is bliss.
Of course you can always constantly invite them out places during the day when they are at work. Constantly gloat about the long lie you are going to have, AGAIN etc etc. All the people I know with jobs are always skint, funny that.

[zonker84]

Totally agree Alien. I trade in shares as well as a bit of a sideline and the research process is remarkably similar.

Some people will just not be told though. These people are usually stupid. They usually have loser jobs. Funny that, but they think they're better than you too. It's silly really, but like I said, their problem.

[aliensyndm]

Aye those are the people always trying to scrounge a pint off someone or borrow a tenner.

[Beanie]

Does it not say in the bible somewhere that gambling is wrong, and you get a plague or something or other unleashed on your genitals if you dabble in it? Could have sworn it did...

Anyway, as zonker was saying, it all boils down to stigma.

Deep down I think my ma is clever enough to appreciate that there is a certain amount of skill in gambling. And as such, she must then also appreciate that it is possible to make money from it. But actually considering it as a socially acceptable hobby/interest/job is totally different.

There does seem to be this cut off...maybe as Zonker says around 40.

Just about all the guys I know have some sort of interest in gambling, whether it be a £2 accumulator at the weekend or big stakes stuff at all hours of the week. But for most of the older generations that have never been involved in it, its unlikely that their views on it will ever change.

And to go back to your post Alien...I reckon someone like my mum sees trading as stocks and shares as acceptable, as its done by(or atleast the image is of) well spoken men in suits and Persil white shirts. The image of gambling of those older than the internet generation will forever be smelly Komp like men in smoky rooms gambling on a Greyhound race every three minutes. Even though as you both say the fundamentals are remarkably similar, its the baggage that goes with it.

[zonker84]

Originally Posted by Beanie

The image of gambling of those older than the internet generation will forever be smelly Komp like men in smoky rooms gambling on a Greyhound race every three minutes.

I'm sure he'll thank you for that

[MickeyPaul]

The amount of times Komp came to my mind as I was reading through this thread. Some good stuff there fellas.

[jasper_77]

I have been spending most of my time gambling for the last year now. It took my Mum and Dad a long time to get used to it and I'm sure they don't tell people what I do! My in-laws were convinced that it would not work, mainly because my wife's grandfather lost lost lots of money in betting shops. They seem to be coming round to the idea now.

It's a great life when you're winning. I'm probably in a pretty lucky position in that I don't need to do it to pay the mortgage and so I don't have as much pressure as if it were a true job. It's lonely and dispiriting when you are losing, though, and losing streaks can last for a long time (think months not weeks). I think that you have to be very analytical and you have to have a very good understanding of risk and money management. (I would say that Joe Buchdahl's book Fixed Odds Sports Betting is essential reading for anybody thinking about gambling seriously).