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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 22-07-2007, 16:57
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Re: India in England

he was at 12 at that time
he is out now 16(35) (3-4s)
India 89/3 need 291r hardly they can survive now
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 22-07-2007, 18:24
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Re: India in England

Well a lot changed when Ganguly came in
India 137/3 and one day to go is not completely lost.In fact because of the weather tomorrow draw is more possibly,although eng still can claim the
first win of the series.

ps.Karthilk 56no played extremely well and with Ganguly 36no formed a good
partnenship 53(98)
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 22-07-2007, 19:51
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Re: India in England

Ganguly doesnt like being crowded though, & his normal response to that is by using his feet & attacking. The problem is he knows the response if he gets out charging Panesar in this situation

Accuweather has a bit of rain overnight, then:
10am & 11am rain
12pm cloudy
1pm rain
2pm cloudy
3pm, 4pm, 5pm rain

So just taking it on that there doesnt appear a great deal of hope of there being enough play. Overcast conditions will, however, bring the likelihood of the ball swinging into play, as it hasnt swung much tonight. If Anderson & Sidebottom can regain the control of the 1st innings then I feel 2 sessions worth of play will be enough......although of course 2 sessions of play with the bowling side attacking could produce a close game & for all the reasons given earlier I dont see India winning.
I think that Kartik & Ganguly need to get to lunch to save the game, at the very least. I also think that Dhoni is playing for his immediate future. He doesnt like the moving ball & failed in the first innings & looked extremely uncomfortable whilst doing it. Hes missed a couple of chances including a glaring one off Kumble to Sidebottom where he went the wrong way leaving Dravid miles to make up at slip. Being Sidebottom it wasnt costly but it looked very poor. There were mutterings about him being dropped for this test & India need Yuvraj Singhs batting at 7 I feel, & if Kartik converts tonights 56 into something more substantial hes certainly in no danger, & could obviously keep as well.

Betfair are trading @ 1.68 the draw & 2.8 England.

Given 55-60 overs, I think its Englands
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 23-07-2007, 04:39
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Re: India in England

Accuweather has gone from being optimistic to currently fairly dismal, 5.30am UK. We'll need the most part of the morning at 'em and pick up 2 or 3 wkts, then hoover up the rest between rain spells in the afternoon and evening.

I can see an 'Underwood scenario' (though that was on uncovered pitches)late in the day with every man jack around the bat to Monty. Betfair draw falling overnight; 1.42 currently.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 23-07-2007, 20:07
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Re: India in England

Draw it was then, but only after a tense, tense day
Good match in the end & after picking up Kartik & Ganguly early, Laxman & dhoni stood between England & the win. Tremlett produced 3 good wickets including Laxmans (although somebody needs to ask Zaheer Khan what the flying fcuk he thought he was doing pulling at that stage ) & it was all summed up by 2 balls from Panesar. One to Dhoni which squared him up late on & whispered past off stump, & a pretty adjacent lbw shout on Sreesanth late on. Its all opinions though & Dravids dismissal possibly wasnt a great decision.
Fair play to Dhoni though, especially as I was figuring he could be dropped for the 2nd test He pushes across the line & he was probably lucky not to get out to some of the shots he played, but the end result is what matters & having watched him when England levelled the series in India early last year, I didnt think he had it in him
Apparently when he walked out to the crease earlier, Prior said: "Yuvraj is looking excellent in the nets y'know, Dhoni"
England should have won, of that I have no doubt. My KP 6's bet restricted me to a loss of only -12.9pnts on the match but I wouldnt have played it any other way tbh as I firmly believe it was easily the value call. Anybody whos backed the draw at the type of prices I laid (1.55 & 1.23) & not traded, even though they eventually won, must have had a very uncomfortable 5 days. It just wasnt value & was a ridiculous price to back a draw on these wickets.
The pitch looked hard but was never dry throughout & as I kept pointing out only the really technical players at the top order (Dhoni excepted) survived, the lower & middle orders were consistently wiped out throughout the match.

I see much the same at Trent Bridge tbh, starting friday. Accuweather currently says:
Weds - rain day & night
Thurs - thunderstorms day & night
Friday - cloudy
Saturday - rain day & night
Sunday - thunderstorms
Monday - thunderstorms
Tuesday - ok (whoopee-fcuking-do )

Betfairs currently trading @:
England 2.8
India 5.8
Draw 1.96

I was tempted into laying the draw straight away but a couple of things have stopped me for the moment, as it needs a decent bit of thought:
One is that with people backing the draw at absurdly low prices this time & getting away with it, I expect the price to drop a fair way during the week.
The second is that without the Lords drainage, this test would certainly have been a draw. Now I took that into account but a lot of the 'floaters' probably didnt (more like definetly) Now Trent Bridges drainage simply isnt as good as Lords, although its not bad but this is an unprecedented summer in living memory. So its fair to say we're looking again at a 300-350 over test.
This Lords test lasted 343 overs & its probably fair to say that at any other ground you'd probably say the 43 overs would have been lost leaving just the 300.
The last first class match at Trent Bridge was 10 days ago where the 1st & 3rd days were washed out & only 85.2 overs overall bowled.....although Notts scored 400 in 85.1 so the pitch wasnt bad but I guess there being no chance of a result should be taken into account. The 20/20 quarter final last tuesday was put back a day as the ground was flooded but it was completed on the wednesday, although very soggily. Now that game was on Sky (or should have been anyway) & I cant remember the number of litres of water removed from the ground by the 2 'super-soppers' but I do remember it was astronomical & I also remember one of the super soppers blew up !! Now you'd assume it'll have been replaced by friday, but.......
So again it could be weighing up the possibility of only 300 overs or less against an England attack that excelled in seamers conditions at Lords & will expect more of the same conditions.
Looking at Trent Bridges stats, 42% of tests here have been draws, but none in the last 4 & only 3 in the last 10, including 1 in the last 6.
The interesting point is that theres normally a few overs lost at Trent Bridge & in recent years that hasnt meant draws. The only match to last over 400 overs was against India in 1996 which was a draw, the other 2 being India again in 2002 in 361 overs where England lead by 260 but India scored 424-8 second dig to make safety, & Zimbabwe in 2000 which lasted 298 overs.

The 7 results in those 10 tests have lasted: 339, 328, 360, 369, 194, 392, 363
6 of those results have needed over 300 overs, although only 3 over 365 which effectively means losing a days play
India 2 draws in the last 2 which has stopped me as well, but my belief is that they're struggling in these conditions at their ages. Also can an inexperienced England bowling attack bowl that well again ?? Sidebottom on his home ground as well.
Much to think about & I think I'll wait to see how low the draw goes. Theres no way I'm backing the draw in these conditions in this country...its a road to ruin quite honestly, but whether I get involved in laying it depends on whether enough people force it down to around the 1.65 mark or below
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 23-07-2007, 22:28
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Re: India in England

The bbc weather forecast is different to accuweather.
They have Light Showers for Thursday then Sunny intervals for Friday and Saturday.

So which is likely to be more accurate and which forecast will the draw backers/traders be reading/believing.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 23-07-2007, 22:32
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Re: India in England

You can take your pick on weather sites tbh. I've always trusted Accuweather more than any others for tests but this season in England I reckon theyre all guessing, but looking at BBCs I'm definetly edging towards a result
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 23-07-2007, 22:34
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Re: India in England

BTW before anybody gets confused, back to back tests have the second one starting on the friday in England, not the normal thursday. I've only included days prior to the test for the chances of keeping the covers off the pitch to dry it out.
Not saying you didnt know Colbro, but others have fallen for it before
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 23-07-2007, 22:58
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Re: India in England

Its a fair point that Swoop which needed to be made.
I was thinking of backing the draw now and laying closer to the start so checked both sites more out of curiosity. I've noticed the draw seems to drift in on days one or two from some of your previous threads on matches.
I mentioned the Thursday forecast as thunderstorms will take longer to clear than light showers and obviously one will be wrong so some people will be betting on incorrect information. Just thinking aloud really.
The price for the draw has moved from 2.00 to 1,93 in the last 90 mins or so so I'll keep a watching brief on this rather than bet this time.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 24-07-2007, 17:59
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Re: India in England

Draw @ 2.04 on Betfair now

Was looking on the Betfair forum earlier which is generally a load of people talking rubbish, but there are some decent thinkers as well. One of them referred to this on Cricinfo, which makes extremely interesting reading regarding the Indian big boys in the middle order:

This is a batting order that has long lived on reputation; three years, to be precise. Not since the tour of Pakistan in early 2004 has India's middle order earned the right to be termed mighty.

Let's dispense with the numbers first. In Test matches since that series, Sachin Tendulkar averages 45.67, Sourav Ganguly 36.24 and VVS Laxman 33.70. But even these numbers hide the reality for none them has failed to cash in on weak opponents. Three of Tendulkar's last four hundreds - including a career-best 248 - have come against Bangladesh, Ganguly has scored hundreds against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh, his only centuries since a stirring 144 against Australia at Brisbane in 2003, and Laxman has got a hundred against Zimbabwe. Remove these runs and the story is dire. Tendulkar's average dips to 31.19, Ganguly's to 29.40 and Laxman's to 32.19.

Increasingly it looks likely that this is what India's once-glittering middle order is capable of providing in demanding conditions: battling thirties and the odd half-century. That's what Tendulkar, Laxman and Ganguly provided at Lord's and that's what they did against Australia, Pakistan and South Africa in 2004-05, and against South Africa earlier this year. More than 20 Tests in the space of three years is a long enough sample period to present a pattern and, despite what the rest of this series might bring, it's about time to bury the myth about India's middle order.

India's batting in recent years has been about two men. One of them isn't here. Despite his failure in South Africa, Virender Sehwag averages 46.89 in Tests since May 2004 and, incredibly, his average goes a couple of points higher if you remove his Tests against Zimbabwe.

The other is Rahul Dravid, who averages nearly 50 without his runs against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. India missed a big innings from him in South Africa. It was the first time since 2000 that he'd gone through a series without a half-century and it perhaps cost India the series. In both innings at Lord's he was dismissed without getting in, which is not something that can be said about Tendulkar, Laxman and Ganguly.

Batsmen who get into the 30s can't be described as out of form. But the failure to push on from there must point to something. Has the process of survival become so onerous that it is draining away the mental resources needed to construct more substantial innings? Can the body no longer endure the rigour? Is it a combination of both?


Now I thought I'd posted before the 1st test (but I cant find it so maybe I just intended to ) that I wasnt sure on the strength of the Indian 'Galacticos'. Like the article above I dont really have many doubts over Dravid, & I have a lot of respect for Gangulys 'toughness' but I'm not sure they're as good as they were. My theory was/is that a tour of England tends to be a perfect end to a big career, particularly regarding India & the old 'Empire & Commonwealth' bit, & its the kind of tour that you hold on for in your career. An example of this but the other way around was Warne, McGrath, Langer & even Martyn walking after or during last winters Ashes.
A strong player is the bloke who knows his strengths & weaknesses, knows what he can & cant do, for example both Hutton & Steve Waugh decided to give up the hook, but in this case its also a player knowing when to retire.
Tendulkar is undoubtedly one of the 2 best batsmen I've ever seen live, with Ricky Ponting, though KP could be the most exciting........but are the reasons of players like him, Laxman & Ganguly for coming to England the right ones ?? I guess if any of them retire afterwards we'll know.
The figures in that article say a lot, & theres also an article on Cricinfo today saying in the last 4 series' that England have played India, Englands bowlers have been understrength but have done well each time.

Possibly not all they're cracked up to be ?? Time will tell
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 24-07-2007, 21:48
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Re: India in England

The BBC weather forecast now more closely resembles accuweathers and shows rain for Thursday.
Accuweathers thunderstorm predictions for Thursday night will presumably affect the amount of play on Friday as stated before the drainage at Trent Bridge as seen on 20/20 quater finals day was not like Lords.
Play on Sat/Sun looks unlikely.
I'll have a wee nibble at 2.00 on the draw with a view to trading during the game.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 25-07-2007, 21:18
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Re: India in England

Looking at Accuweathers hour by hour thing, & this is going to look dramatic as fcuk
Thursday: showers throughout
Friday: rain 7pm-11pm, otherwise ok
Saturday: rain 8am-sunday 2am
Sunday: playing time ok but rain 8pm-3am monday
Monday: THUNDER 9am-3am TUESDAY !!!!!!!!!!!!
Tuesday: playing time ok

Now obviously I'm not saying thats going to be right exactly but......fcuk me !!
Draws drifted to 2.32 & England 2.66....& if my main rule wasnt dont back the draw at short odds, particularly in England.....I'd be tempted at that forecast

Be strong, Swoop, be strong

Last edited by Swooperman : 25-07-2007 at 23:24.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 25-07-2007, 21:35
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Re: India in England

Excellent stuff fellas.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 26-07-2007, 00:26
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Re: India in England

Yeah, it's not just the weather; it's likely Indian batting will improve with 350+ looking more likely than 201 first innings. More crease time, less chance result. Dravid, Sachin, Laxman, Ganguly made (together) 259 at Lords in 2002 then averaged 433 in the next three tests.

Ganguly's back may keep him out but his replacement is no slouch!
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 26-07-2007, 13:58
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Re: India in England

I was in Nottingham this morning from 10am-12pm & the rain was absolutely torrential. I've since headed back towards Birmingham where its still raining but if its still raining in Nottingham I will be utterly astounded if they start on time tomorrow. Bearing in mind the 20/20 was delayed by a day 10 days ago as the outfield was unfit & then we had the really bad stuff last friday & saturday & it hasnt really recovered....& then this

It was bad enough the M1 was down to 30mph & visibility was about 60 yards, & the main road out of Nottinghm to J26 was basically having its manhole covers pushed up by the force of water
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