Hands you dont play.

[GETT1NLOTS]

I normally play full ring games at low NL stakes. This suits my TAG style which I have played for the vast majority of my poker playing 'career'.

Apart from the obvious rubbish which hands don't you play that most might on 10 seat NL game?

Assuming I don't have position I wont call pre flop (often);

Unsuited

Ax
AJ
A10
KJ
K10
KQ
J10
Lower connectors

Suited

K10
K9
Q10
Q9
J9
Lower connectors with any kind of gut.

As players decrease I can change gear and play LAG.

Comments please.

[Doc]

I think you've got to understand what sort of flop you want and how often you'll get it.

Basically hands will improve in 3 ways:

1) Making pairs (or higher)
2) Making straights
3) Making flushes

Taking each in turn:
1) The higher your cards the better your pair (and kicker) will be. If you start with a pair, then you have a much better chance of making trips (which will also be well hidden), so that is even stronger.
2) The closer the cards are the more straights they'll make, and the more of those that will be nut straights. If your lowest card is higher than a 9, then every straight they make is the nut straight
3) the higher the cards the more likely they are to make the nut flush

Connected cards, suited cards and pairs (unless they also have good high card strength) will usually not make the strongest hand on the flop, or even make a good draw. Since they will therefore have to be folded quite often, you need to get a good price to enter the pot. The more players already in, the stronger the guarantee that you get this, but if the table conditions are right, then you can play with fewer people currently in the pot.

e.g. at a loose passive table, I'd be quite happy to play KTs from early position, but I know I'm going to need a really good hand/draw to continue

[GETT1NLOTS]

Connected cards, suited cards and pairs (unless they also have good high card strength) will usually not make the strongest hand on the flop, or even make a good draw. Since they will therefore have to be folded quite often, you need to get a good price to enter the pot. The more players already in, the stronger the guarantee that you get this, but if the table conditions are right, then you can play with fewer people currently in the pot.

For arguments sake would you rather flat call with 76 suited or K1O suited pre flop Doc? (Or neither) as a general rule?

[GETT1NLOTS]

For your information this is the part of my game that is currently under review. I will see most flops with suited connectors but I tend to flat call them as opposed to raise with them pre flop (Doyle Brunson style).

As you say

they will therefore have to be folded quite often

Doyle Brunson advocates raising with them pre flop the same way you would AA or KK. He'll then put in a continuation raise after the flop no matter what. Often he'll win the pot without going to showdown because he is taken for an A if an A hits the flop OR he'll win a big pot if his connectors pair, trip, two pair, straight draw or flush draw. I'm not sure is this style works on low stakes NL games but that is another thread topic.....

By flat calling with suited connectors pre flop I'm not getting / giving the same effect so I'm wondering if I should play them Doyle style or maybe alter which hands I start with. I.E Should I play with K10 suited as opposed to 76 suited?

Generally I hate hands like

Unsuited

Ax
AJ
A10
KJ
K10
KQ
J10


Suited

K10
K9
Q10

Because whilst you can make the nut straight / flush with some of these hands you can lose big pots if you just make top pair and lose to a bigger kicker. I don't know the exact maths but I do know that starting hands like this are more likely to top pair than flush or straight so the potential for putting yourself in horrible situations is immense.

If you hold Qh 10h and the flop comes Qs 9s 8h and you face a big raise....? Urghhhh - horrible. You can lose a massive pot here - and I would kick myself for being involved.

Sorry just airing my thoughts really. Trying to narrow down what parts of my game need more work.

[Doc]

For arguments sake would you rather flat call with 76 suited or K1O suited pre flop Doc? (Or neither) as a general rule?

I'd raise with neither as a general rule, although I guess a steal raise would be more likely with KTs if I was first into the pot.
I'm looking to play for cheap and flop a big hand. If the table is tight, and especially if it is also agressive then I'm going to fold these hands most of the time - the exception being if several people are in, or I'm in excellent position. If it is loose aggressive then I'll want good position. If it is loose passive then I'll probably take a look from most positions.

BTW, I don't think Brunson advocates playing small connectors this way - he plays aggressively in general, so he might take a shot at an unopened pot with them (as he would with many other hands). Alternatively he is happy to call a large raise with them. There is very good reason for this - they are extremely unlikely to be dominated in such situations, and they are well hidden. It is also a fact that against AA the best hand you can have (besides AA) is 76s or 87s!

Brunson may also (Harrington does this for example) use the suited connectors as a 'randomizer' to add some deceptive value to his play - i.e. OCCASIONALLY raising from early position with them, in the same way as he would with AA. The idea here is that he reinforces the idea among his opponents that a 'scary' raise from him doesn't always mean AA or KK, so he gets more action when that is in fact what he has
For online play, where you'll rarely enough be up against the same players (and even less often against ones who'll 'learn' your play) you don't need to bother so much with this type of strategy.

[GETT1NLOTS]

BTW, I don't think Brunson advocates playing small connectors this way

I'll have a scan of Super System when I get home but I'm sure this is how he plays suited connectors.

[Beanie]

I'm ploughing through SS2 just now, and he does mention raising with them but usually only in late position I think, other than for the reasons Doc stated, and more importantly looks to call decent sized preflop raises with them, erm...as Doc stated.

Like you say though Gett1n reading through it I find very little that applies to low stake NL games - as Brunson mentions its important not to complicate things against weak players - and so most of the things he writes about I haven't got much need to use ATM. Good read tho.

[GETT1NLOTS]

I've got SS2 as well as the first one but I haven't read the NL section as I was told it was exactly the same (virtually) as book 1.

I think I must be going mad then. I'm sure he said he raised suited connectors pre flop every time... maybe he just implied it.... or I got that impression due to a coup,e of example hands he talks about. I'll read it when I get home as there is zero point buying a book if you can't remember the bloody advice it gives.

[Beanie]

I could be wrong too...I skimmed through first off and am only just getting into the suited connectors bit.

Anyway in terms of hands I don't play, your first post pretty much sums mine up without position.

Thats for the Low stakes NL tables, but in live games or games where people know that I'm TAG and likely to only play premium hands, I'm trying to mix my style up a bit more, play a few hands I wouldn't usually and play hands differently. Easier said than done tho...

[raisin man]

It is also a fact that against AA the best hand you can have (besides AA) is 76s or 87s!

Is this true?

[Beanie]

Yep...think 56s where neither of the aces are of that suit is the best.

[pistol984]

From personal experience today, I've found that both pocket 10's and KQs have a 100% chance of beating AA.

Of course this only applies if I have the Aces and all the money is in pre-flop

[raisin man]

I busted pocket As myself today with pocket 10s,

I had $20 at a 10-20c table. I raised, he re-raised, I re-re-raised, he pushed me all in, I called cause i was really bored and wanted to see how lucky I really was

Caught my 10 on the river. He was so pissed off. I couldn't stop laughing.

Really bad play by me, knew it at the time but didn't care

[pistol984]

Just lost to pocket 9's with AA

[pistol984]

So to recap, AA has cost me a little over $75 today.